[Owncloud] About Bootstrap and ownCloud

Wed Mar 20 16:04:35 UTC 2013

a CSS framework is something completely different than a programming 
language framework.

Imagine dealing with a framework that overwrites a ton of the languages 
default functions/libs so they dont work like youd expect them anymore.

On 03/20/2013 05:01 PM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
> On 20.03.2013 16:05, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> What I know is that the design we’re going for – look at the News app or
>> the Notes app – is so simple that we do not need Bootstrap. We have 
>> what –
>> a header, an app navigation bar and for the app a left navigation bar 
>> and a
>> content area. That’s it.
> Yes, I am of course not voting for "use this" or "use that". But your 
> initial mail sounded very much like "we don't use a framework, we do 
> one ourselfes". No discussion that this would be stupid, right?
>
> But - what happens if the app developer wants a framework? The 
> ownCloud surrounding "frame" (header, navigation bar and stuff) is 
> only a piece of the cake, right? The music plays in the apps imo, and 
> what standard solution do we offer/recommend/enforce(?) there? Or is 
> every app dev supposed to bring its own?
>
> Klaas
>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Stefan Nagtegaal <
>> development at standoutdesign.nl> wrote:
>>
>>> Besides the very good point Klaas comes up with here, is that Twitter
>>> Bootstrap has proven it's value for many, many big projects and 
>>> websites.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, for many _websites_. Bootstrap is primarily for websites and 
>> less for
>> apps. That’s a difference. I used it several times for websites as 
>> well as
>> apps and it indeed proved helpful for websites. For the apps not so much
>> because things need to be streamlined.
>>
>>
>>
>>> If you want to have a consistent UI, with usable and proven UI elements
>>> for navigation, dropdowns, balloons, or whatever this is the way to 
>>> go imo
>>> or at least base our core/css/style.css-file upon it.
>>>
>>
>> First off, lots of the UI elements in Bootstrap we don’t even need, and
>> basically all of the others we would need to improve or change looks of
>> anyway if we want to use them. We don’t need the grid first of all. We
>> don’t need any balloons, for dropdowns we use jquery.multiselect or 
>> Chosen
>> already, and the left side navigation styles we also already did, see
>> https://github.com/owncloud/core/pull/2275
>> We have buttons and button groups and breadcrumbs done already. We don’t
>> need any pagination, media object, wells, tabs, pills and so much other
>> stuff. For the Javascript stuff, we don’t need Scrollspy, tabs or 
>> popovers.
>> Our tooltips are handled by tipsy already (which is also used by
>> Bootstrap), we have alert styles already, we don’t need Accordions nor
>> Carousels.
>>
>> What’s left? What we have right now.
>>
>>
>> Your point here is crap, and doesn't bring any value to the discussion:
>>> Funfact: No usability test participant ever said »strange, this website
>>> doesn’t use Bootstrap«. Because people don’t care. Let’s work on real
>>> issues."
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, please don’t attack my arguments just based on one »fun fact« 
>> which I
>> inserted just for laughs.
>> The point in here was that our most pressing interface issues 
>> definitely do
>> not include the need to use a hyped library which will really not 
>> help us
>> that much.
>>
>>
>>
>>> People DO care about a UI that is consistent, user-friendly and looks
>>> good. Bootstrap is bringing that faster to ownCloud than scratching 
>>> your
>>> own itch, because a lot of (usability) test participants are already
>>> familiar with the UI-elements (because of they are used by big 
>>> companies
>>> like Twitter, Google, etch etc).
>>>
>>
>> That’s simply not true. People are not familiar with the UI elements.
>> Everyone who uses Bootstrap customizes it. Facebook, Google, Twitter and
>> Apple all use vastly different elements. None of these big
>> projects/companies use Bootstrap, because it would hold them back with
>> strange predefined styles which wouldn’t be used anyway because they 
>> have
>> better designers. I don’t see how Bootstrap will help us here.
>> Also it’s not about »test participants« but about people, about everyone
>> who will use the software.
>> I also don’t get what you mean by »scratching your own itch« in this 
>> case.
>> We constantly listen to feedback and do testing, it’s far from only 
>> doing
>> ownCloud for ourselves. I got feedback by someone who runs ownCloud in
>> primary schools in France and they love it (they even switched over from
>> another software) because it’s so easy to use.
>>
>>
>> Afterall, I'm not saying Bootstrap brings us everything we ever 
>> wanted. But
>>> I AM saying that Bootstrap is a pretty solid base to work from, to 
>>> bring
>>> ownCloud a consistant user interface and fix a gap between coders and
>>> designers.
>>>
>>
>> Seeing how we wouldn’t use much of it, and of the remaining stuff 
>> heavily
>> customize anyway, I fail to see that. Maybe I’m wrong.
>>
>>
>> If you like, you can rework the current interface (ideally also the main
>> apps) to use Bootstrap, but make sure it looks and works similar to 
>> how it
>> does now. We have reasons for designing it this way and not just using
>> Bootstrap and its default styles. Then please submit a pull request and
>> we’ll see if it’s better. If it’s better we can use it.
>>
>>
>> My main point here is that not everything is magically improved by 
>> using a
>> library like Bootstrap, and it’s not even a good base. Look for 
>> instance at
>> our installation process. It’s so vastly simpler than any other
>> installation process, and it would look and work way more complicated 
>> if we
>> used Bootstrap. If we want to do proper usable design, we need to invest
>> more.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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