[Owncloud] About Bootstrap and ownCloud

[Klaas Freitag]

On 20.03.2013 17:04, Bernhard Posselt wrote:

> a CSS framework is something completely different than a programming
> language framework.
I know. I did a couple of large web based systems already.

> Imagine dealing with a framework that overwrites a ton of the languages
> default functions/libs so they dont work like youd expect them anymore.
Yes. And if you would have stayed away from top posting, I'd had a 
chance to understand why you tell me that here ;-)

Klaas

>
> On 03/20/2013 05:01 PM, Klaas Freitag wrote:
>> On 20.03.2013 16:05, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>> What I know is that the design we’re going for – look at the News app or
>>> the Notes app – is so simple that we do not need Bootstrap. We have
>>> what –
>>> a header, an app navigation bar and for the app a left navigation bar
>>> and a
>>> content area. That’s it.
>> Yes, I am of course not voting for "use this" or "use that". But your
>> initial mail sounded very much like "we don't use a framework, we do
>> one ourselfes". No discussion that this would be stupid, right?
>>
>> But - what happens if the app developer wants a framework? The
>> ownCloud surrounding "frame" (header, navigation bar and stuff) is
>> only a piece of the cake, right? The music plays in the apps imo, and
>> what standard solution do we offer/recommend/enforce(?) there? Or is
>> every app dev supposed to bring its own?
>>
>> Klaas
>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Stefan Nagtegaal <
>>> development at standoutdesign.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Besides the very good point Klaas comes up with here, is that Twitter
>>>> Bootstrap has proven it's value for many, many big projects and
>>>> websites.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, for many _websites_. Bootstrap is primarily for websites and
>>> less for
>>> apps. That’s a difference. I used it several times for websites as
>>> well as
>>> apps and it indeed proved helpful for websites. For the apps not so much
>>> because things need to be streamlined.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> If you want to have a consistent UI, with usable and proven UI elements
>>>> for navigation, dropdowns, balloons, or whatever this is the way to
>>>> go imo
>>>> or at least base our core/css/style.css-file upon it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> First off, lots of the UI elements in Bootstrap we don’t even need, and
>>> basically all of the others we would need to improve or change looks of
>>> anyway if we want to use them. We don’t need the grid first of all. We
>>> don’t need any balloons, for dropdowns we use jquery.multiselect or
>>> Chosen
>>> already, and the left side navigation styles we also already did, see
>>> https://github.com/owncloud/core/pull/2275
>>> We have buttons and button groups and breadcrumbs done already. We don’t
>>> need any pagination, media object, wells, tabs, pills and so much other
>>> stuff. For the Javascript stuff, we don’t need Scrollspy, tabs or
>>> popovers.
>>> Our tooltips are handled by tipsy already (which is also used by
>>> Bootstrap), we have alert styles already, we don’t need Accordions nor
>>> Carousels.
>>>
>>> What’s left? What we have right now.
>>>
>>>
>>> Your point here is crap, and doesn't bring any value to the discussion:
>>>> Funfact: No usability test participant ever said »strange, this website
>>>> doesn’t use Bootstrap«. Because people don’t care. Let’s work on real
>>>> issues."
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, please don’t attack my arguments just based on one »fun fact«
>>> which I
>>> inserted just for laughs.
>>> The point in here was that our most pressing interface issues
>>> definitely do
>>> not include the need to use a hyped library which will really not
>>> help us
>>> that much.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> People DO care about a UI that is consistent, user-friendly and looks
>>>> good. Bootstrap is bringing that faster to ownCloud than scratching
>>>> your
>>>> own itch, because a lot of (usability) test participants are already
>>>> familiar with the UI-elements (because of they are used by big
>>>> companies
>>>> like Twitter, Google, etch etc).
>>>>
>>>
>>> That’s simply not true. People are not familiar with the UI elements.
>>> Everyone who uses Bootstrap customizes it. Facebook, Google, Twitter and
>>> Apple all use vastly different elements. None of these big
>>> projects/companies use Bootstrap, because it would hold them back with
>>> strange predefined styles which wouldn’t be used anyway because they
>>> have
>>> better designers. I don’t see how Bootstrap will help us here.
>>> Also it’s not about »test participants« but about people, about everyone
>>> who will use the software.
>>> I also don’t get what you mean by »scratching your own itch« in this
>>> case.
>>> We constantly listen to feedback and do testing, it’s far from only
>>> doing
>>> ownCloud for ourselves. I got feedback by someone who runs ownCloud in
>>> primary schools in France and they love it (they even switched over from
>>> another software) because it’s so easy to use.
>>>
>>>
>>> Afterall, I'm not saying Bootstrap brings us everything we ever
>>> wanted. But
>>>> I AM saying that Bootstrap is a pretty solid base to work from, to
>>>> bring
>>>> ownCloud a consistant user interface and fix a gap between coders and
>>>> designers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Seeing how we wouldn’t use much of it, and of the remaining stuff
>>> heavily
>>> customize anyway, I fail to see that. Maybe I’m wrong.
>>>
>>>
>>> If you like, you can rework the current interface (ideally also the main
>>> apps) to use Bootstrap, but make sure it looks and works similar to
>>> how it
>>> does now. We have reasons for designing it this way and not just using
>>> Bootstrap and its default styles. Then please submit a pull request and
>>> we’ll see if it’s better. If it’s better we can use it.
>>>
>>>
>>> My main point here is that not everything is magically improved by
>>> using a
>>> library like Bootstrap, and it’s not even a good base. Look for
>>> instance at
>>> our installation process. It’s so vastly simpler than any other
>>> installation process, and it would look and work way more complicated
>>> if we
>>> used Bootstrap. If we want to do proper usable design, we need to invest
>>> more.
>>>