Necessitas is NOT a community project
Koying
cbro at semperpax.com
Fri Mar 16 10:59:35 UTC 2012
I won't put great length into my final answer, because my point, i.e.
necessitas NOT being a community project, has not been refuted, nor do I
see in Bogdan's answer any sign that my points will be addressed in to
foreseeable future.
Just some specific points:
1) Insulting
I didn't insult anybody. I probably hurt feelings but you were forewarned.
Re Ray, I was referring to his own quote:
"I just handle Mac and Windows builds and our own version of the ndk
toolchains, I'd like to help out more on the Qt side but I'm basically
a novice with Qt still, plus, I've fallen behind on ndk work anyway."
2) Vision (http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas)
Oh, you mean there is yet ANOTHER place to look for information re
necessitas? Besides, this a TODO list, not a vision.
One thing I understand is that Widgets are more important to you than QML,
even though Qt is deprecating their use on mobile device.
Your call, but I think this is a waste of time/resource, and I admit I'm
somewhat frustrated you refuse to integrate the QML components (either
mine's or Kate's) because it doesn't have the "Android look& feel", which
seems fallacious to me, especially considering the alpha state of the
project and that the widgets do not have it either.
3) KDE; ah, KDE:
"I didn't wanted to give also my money": If you don't want to use one of
the numerous free solutions for hosting FLOSS projects as to make the
project coherent, please organize a fund raising. I'm pretty sure you'll
get the $150 for a yearly hosting plan in a matter of seconds.
"I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice": Why "joining
somebody"? To host the project? See above. KDE a natural choice? Why?
Because they're using Qt? In that sense, you could as well have asked QGIS
to host necessitas. At least they officially support multiplatform.
4) Patches:
"Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch": Oh
indeed, it is ALWAYS faster, but it is not how it works in a community
project.
"e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't work at all": My point
exactly. You didn't discuss the supposed fact that it doesn't work with me
(although it works pretty well for me, thank you).
"Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last patch,
because it was a fiasco": Not a bit frustrated about the revert. I KNEW it
wasn't working as it should. I'm frustrated because I proposed a solution
(limit to /assets) both on the dev list and on the reviewboard, without ANY
reaction.
OK, that's about it.
I'm still not 100% sure Qt on Android is viable as a "commercial"
alternative but thanks to Bogdan's great work, I was able to port my pet
Qt/QML apps from Symbian to Android and they work great with some patches.
For what it's worth, my necessitas clone is at
https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt/koyings-android-lighthouse (Native Options
Menu + Native Context Menu + "/assets" only + Native Share menu soon)
My Symbian derivated QML Components are at
https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt-components/android-qt-components (Native
Options Menu + Native Context Menu + Native Share menu soon)
Don't forget Kate's Meego-derived components, either (We should really
merge those...)
Best Regards
- Chris -
On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:01:46 PM UTC+1, BogDan wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> On Mar 15, 1:07 pm, Koying <c... at semperpax.com> wrote:
> > WARNING! This post is a rant, expresses only my own opinion and
> feelings
> > might be harmed during the course of this reading.
> >
> > *<RANT>*
> >
> > This post is a reaction to a thread on the dev list where Bogdan was
> > lamenting on the lack of commitment to the project.
> > I found it both laughable and pathetic in the sense that NOTHING is done
> to
> > make it a project you can be committed to, and I'll expose, IMHO, why.
> >
>
> Until now I find your remarks very insulting ...
>
> > 1) *This is a one man (and a half, sorry Ray), "benevolent despot" kind
> of
> > project.*
> >
>
> I'm not going to accept you to insult Ray ! Ray's contribution is not
> half !
> Because Ray dedicate his free time to this project, now 4000+ users
> can use this
> project on windows and mac ! What have you done for this project ?
>
> >
> > Bogdan IS the project. Every single decision is made by him without
> > discussions nor appeal. He has his vision for the project (that I didn't
> > find, but it could be hidden in one of the zillions places the project
> is
> > scattered into. More on this later) and I don't feel like he is open to
> > discuss/challenge this vision.
>
> I'm confused ! First you say that "He has his vision for the project
> that I didn't
> find .. " then you say "I don't feel like he is open to discuss/
> challenge this vision." !
> If you don't know my vision, how can you say that I'm not open to
> discuss it,
> did we ever discuss it ?
>
> Anyway, my expectations for this project are here:
> http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas
>
> We (you and me) had a few discussions before, but I don't remember I
> have been that close...
> We talk about menus and about look&feel plugin, I remember that we
> had different approaches on this topic, you wanted add android
> look&feel only to
> your QML, I didn't agreed, because I still want to support class
> widgets.
> It means that I'm not open to discuss? Please give me more hints on
> this matter !
> BTW Android 9patch is more complex than the standard, so, you can't
> use
> QML BorderImage (qDrawBorderPixmap) to draw the images !
>
> > This is human. AFAIK Bogdan created the project and feels he has all
> rights
> > on it (which he has), but that prevents real involvement from others.
> > Fact is, if Bogdan is unavailable, the project just plain stops.
> >
>
> Every community project, is based on meritocracy:
> You code/contribute, then you have the right to make decisions !
>
> > 2) *NOTHING is done to make it a community project.*
> >
> > I already ranted about this, but the scattering of the project resources
> is
> > just plain ridiculous, laughable and a HOWTO not to make a coherent
> project.
> > Wiki on sourceforge, 1 mailing list on kde and 1 on google groups, 1 bug
> > tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code, unclear/hidden master
> > repository, unclear contribution process, which leads me to:
> >
>
> If you search this mailing list you'll find all the informations you
> need:
> - regarding HOWTO and other information: The sf.net pages was written
> by Damine Treg,
> sadly he didn't had time to continue, so I asked may times for peoples
> help !
> Nobody wanted to do it! I can't do everything by myself !
> - 1 on google groups - this is a high traffic general mailing list
> used by everybody.
> - 1 mailing list on kde - this one is a low traffic mailing list
> used only by developers, I don't have time to read all posts on
> google.
> - 1 bug tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code - it was discuss
> many times before, ONLY bug tracker on sourceforge should be used.
> - unclear/hidden master repository: check
> http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories
> - unclear contribution process, as I already said to you before is not
> may fault !
>
>
> > 3) *What the f... does necessitas has to do with KDE?*
> >
> > I only assume Bogdan and Ray are KDE devs and that it is easy for them
> to
> > host necessitas's master git and "contribution process" on KDE, but this
> is
> > VERY wrong from a necessitas perspective. KDE might have its own
> > contribution process but it is irrelevant to us and ridiculous for a
> > necessitas contributor to have to register a kde account to be able to
> use
> > reviewboard, itself, IMHO, a very obscure and complicated system for
> code
> > contribution vs. what is existing in github or gitorious.
> > Obviously, all merge requests in the gitorious clone are ignored.
> > Pretty please, make gitorious the main repository, use gitorious merge
> > request system and do whatever KDE stuff you fancy do in your own KDE
> > corner.
> >
>
> It has everything to do with KDE! Necessitas *IS* a KDE project !
> Again, searching this list will give you enough informations.
> I'll try to summarize: When I released first alpha I had to put
> Ministro libs somewhere,
> I used some free servers to put the libs, but it was not a good
> solution. I dedicated my
> free time to this project and I didn't wanted to give also my money,
> so I had to find
> a reliable solution, back then Nokia just joined Microsoft, to fight
> against android,
> so, I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice, we share the
> same goal:
> To keep QT free and powerful.
>
> Regarding contributions: We want to upstream everything, the problems
> are:
> - Nokia doesn't accept contributions without accepting and sign their
> contributors agreement,
> - I can't move the project to qt-project.org (they don't want it yet
> because is not finished)
> so you can't accept their agreement, when you publish your patch.
> - The ONLY solution was to "force" contributors to release their code
> under BSD or public domain.
>
> >
> > 4) *Accept contribution, reject them, discuss them or ask for update,
> DON'T
> > rewrite them*.
> >
> > Crying for contribution, then taking some parts of a patch to rewrite it
> > you way, mostly incompatible with the original patch, is NOT the way to
> go
> > to motivate contributors.
> >
>
> Again I find some of your remarks very insulting, I'm not "crying"
> for contribution !
> I'm happy to have more contributor, but i'm not crying !
>
> Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch
> or to
> ask for updates ! e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't
> work at all,
> but I've seen a lot potential, so I decide to make it work [2] !
> I *CREDIT YOU FOR YOUR WORK* and I push a working version, so,
> what was wrong in that ?
>
> Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last
> patch,
> because it was a fiasco, it made the applications almost unusable, is
> that my fault ?
> Probably it is, because I trust your patch and I didn't run and check
> all the tests before push it !
> The problem is to run and check all the tests it takes too much (1-3
> days).
>
> > 5) *The project is sloooooowwwwww*.
> >
> > Due to 1), 2) and Bogdan's limited availability, necessitas is slow to
> > progress in its own right. I kind of made my own necessitas fork to move
> > on, and due to 4) it has diverged so much from the main trunk that I'm
> not
> > sure I'll bother rebasing.
> >
> > 6) *Maybe related to 3), I don't know if it is necessitas or KDE, but
> one
> > should definitely learn about the "git rebase" command*.
> >
> > All the merges coming from I don't know which branches makes the git
> > repository unreadable. The proper way to merge upstream is to rebase and
> > resolve conflicts. Merging upstream is pure lazyness.
> >
>
> WOW you are so good! We didn't know about "git rebase" command !!!
> Of course you forgot to learn that you can't use "git rebase" command
> when more than one people is using that branch !
> Check http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/ for more info on this topic.
>
> Merging with upstream is NOT lazyness, is responsibility !
>
> > *Bottom line*:
> >
> > *Necessitas is NOT a community project*.
> >
> > Unless the issues outlined are addressed, It is pointless to whine about
> > necessitas' lack of contribution.
> > I suspect many of the more knowledgeable potential contributors will
> just
> > take the trunk and adapt it to their needs, without bothering trying to
> > contribute it back. Unless the project becomes more community friendly,
> I'm
> > open to contribute to a potential fork.
> >
> > *</RANT>*
> >
>
> I'm open to discuss what is wrong with my vision !
> I'm open to know other people vision, so, please share your vision
> with us!
>
> Don't forget that this project is based on meritocracy! Even if you
> have a vision, remember that you must to code it, not only to discuss
> it !
>
> To be clear: I'm open to discuss, but I'm not going to "cry" for
> contributors or to accept contributions with insults in the same
> box !
>
> > Best Regards
> > - Chris -
>
> [1] https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header
> [2]
>
> https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/android-qt/repository/revisions/6dc070ff2715fd75e0e8576aa6f4c524b824ad42/diff
>
> Cheers,
> BogDan.
>
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