[kplato] Duration less than a day? (was: request)

[Dag Andersen]

On Fredag 05 november 2004 09:41, Mark Tombs wrote:
> On Friday 05 November 2004 09.23, Dag Andersen wrote:
> > On Torsdag 04 november 2004 20:35, Mark Tombs wrote:
> > > On Thursday 04 November 2004 10.03, Dag Andersen wrote:
> > > > On Torsdag 04 november 2004 09:27, Mark Tombs wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday 04 November 2004 09.23, Dag Andersen wrote:
> > > > > > On Onsdag 03 november 2004 21:56, Claus Agerskov wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Mark Tombs wrote:
> > > > > > > > Can the duration be less than a day? Claus wrote :
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Duration is the calendar time of a task."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If a task starts and finishes on the same day, it has
> > > > > > > > a duration of 1.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How do you handle tasks with estimates that isn't
> > > > > > multiple of days? In general, how do you calculate a
> > > > > > project like this?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thats where I think I and, it seems, the rest of the world
> > > > > have a different terminology ;) For me, Duration != work.
> > > > > The hours,
> > > >
> > > > Ok, I understand that, but eventually somebody is going to do
> > > > the work so I'm trying to figure out the connection.
> > > >
> > > > > estimate, work, whatever you call it, is seperate from the
> > > > > duration. A task can start and finish on the same day, have
> > > > > duration of 1, but an estimate of 1 minute, if you like.
> > > > > Now that I
> > > >
> > > > Hmm, so in this case the resource doing the work will have
> > > > 1day-1min free time, or a workload of 1min/1day?
> > > > You probably don't use tasklinks then, you define all
> > > > 'dependencies' by setting start- and/or endtimes?
> > > > What do you do if you have 2 tasks that depends on each other
> > > > but that can be done in 1 day?
> > > >
> > > > > write it like that, it doesn't seem to make much sense, but
> > > > > its how I've always worked. Maybe I should just be quiet
> > > > > now, as everyone else seems to disagree with me.
> > > >
> > > > No, no, if you are working that way, it must make sense,
> > > > probably others do the same somewhere.
> > > > We'll see if we can incorporate different ways of working
> > > > without making things impossible to understand.
> > > >
> > > > > > > Or?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Duration is the time period from start timestamp to the
> > > > > > > end timestamp and can be measured in the time unit you
> > > > > > > want.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's how I see  it, too.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > In some projects minutes can be crucial but in others
> > > > > > > months or - years even - are usable units for duration.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Personal I would have the duration saved in seconds so
> > > > > > > I can choose the time unit I want when I will see the
> > > > > > > duration.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's saved in milliseconds, in a 64 bit int.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The most enjoyable greetings
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > kplato mailing list
> > > > > kplato at kde.org
> > > > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kplato
> > >
> > > Maybe I should tell you what I have been using as a scheduler.
> > > I work for a partner to Niku, who produce enterprise portfolio
> > > management software. Their history is as a producer of project
> > > management software (or rather they bought ABT, who had a
> > > history as a producer of project management software). Some of
> > > you may know ABT Workbench, once called Project Manager
> > > Workbench (PMW). Its been around for donkeys years in various
> > > forms, and Niku have now open-sourced it (well, bits, anyway)
> > > so you can get it and try it yourself at www.openworkbench.org.
> > >
> > > It's Niku's flagship product, Clarity, that I want to integrate
> > > kplato with, as a replacement for workbench.
> > >
> > > Workbench doesn't allow you to set the start time of a task,
> > > and I've never heard anyone complaining yet ;)
> >
> > I'd say it depends on what you want the software to do for you.
> >
> > > The resource knows how
> > > many hours / minutes / seconds she is supposed to work on a
> > > task on which day. I still don't see how controlling the
> > > duration of a task to the minute helps you;
> >
> > I would have liked to see how a plan looked like, especially for
> > cases like:
> > Activity 1: You have a presentation to do at 2 o'clock for 2
> > hours. Activity 2: You want, say, 7 hours to prepare.
> > How do you schedule these, and how do you show the dependency?
>
> In that case, workbench does have a slight problem, I admit, though
> you can give the tasks a finish-finish dependency, i.e. they both
> finish on the same day. But you can't have a finish-start
> dependency on the same day. So in that respect, workbench is
> limited, yes.
OK, I begin to see how this works now. To gain simplicity, some 
details are skipped. But as for a lot of projects you don't depend on 
these details, no problem. The details can anyhow be managed 
manually, i.e. my case above, the plan doesn't show the dependency or 
exactly when the presentation starts, but the person doing the job 
knows very well, so no sweat.
>
> > > in Workbench, the duration is simply the
> > > number of days covered by the task, no more or less than that.
> > > Its the assigned work that matters, and the assigned work that
> > > you can control to the second.
> >
> > How do you control it 'to the second' if you don't know when it's
> > going to be finished? (except sometime during the day)
> > Hmm, maybe you mean the effort here?
>
> Is there an agreed set of definitions anywhere, so that we can all
> be talking about the same thing? Effort, Estimate to complete,
> hours, work, duration, my brain is melting into goo. I think I
> might be talking about effort, but in my world its called estimate
> to complete (ETC).
You're not alone :) I've found one glossary which I think is fairly 
good: http://www.apm.org.uk/resources/glossary.htm
which defines ETC:
Estimate To Complete (ETC)
The value expressed in either money or hours developed to represent 
the cost of the work required to complete a task.
>
> I do think it would help you to have a look at workbench. There are
> quite a few people using it around the world.
>
> > Maybe I'm just slow, but well, as you probably can see, I'm still
> > unsure, a bit confused and not quite certain of what benefits and
> > restrictions this way of working gives :)
> > But I'm quite sure it should be possible to incorporate this work
> > model also, I think it's more a question of finding a reasonable
> > ui that covers it all.
> >
> > > /Mark
> > >
> > >
> > >
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>
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-- 
Mvh,
Dag Andersen