[Kde-games-devel] IRC meeting archives

[Josef Spillner]

Am Sonntag, 3. Dezember 2006 09:34 schrieb Kleag:
> Hello,
>
> Where is the transcript of this meeting ? I'm not able to find it. Maybe
> should the transcripts be systematicaly linked from the IRC meeting Wiki
> page ?

I have attached the log. We might put it into the wiki or at least link from 
the wiki page. Hopefully lists.kde.org will support attachments one day so we 
can link to the list archives.

Josef
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KDE Games IRC meeting (irc://irc.freenode.net/#kdegames) 2006-12-01

19:59 < josef|vista> will we log the meeting? I'm logging anyway...
20:00 < dimsuz> hi
20:00 < dimsuz> me too
20:01 < piacentini> let us start?
20:01 < annma> ok
20:01 < josef|vista> yep
20:01 < piacentini> round of introductions as always?
20:01 < piacentini> mauricio piacentini, working on kmahjongg
20:02 < dimsuz> dmitry suzdalev, working on kreversi and katomic
20:02 < dbdkmezz> paul broadbent, working on kolf
20:02 < piacentini> everybody post at once :)
20:02 < daren> daren sawkey, (unofficially) working on kbackgammon
20:02 < josef|vista> josef spillner from ggzgamingzone.org
20:02 < annma> anne marie mahfouf from kde-edu
20:03 < [ksudoku]Josel> johannes bergmeier helping on ksudoku
20:03 < piacentini> should we start with the new projects?
20:03 < piacentini> maybe ksudoku, as you guys are here?
20:03 < [ksudoku]RedsH> francesco rossi, ksudoku 0.3 author
20:04 < piacentini> If I remember correctly, you guys are still considering if ksudoku will join kdegames or not, right?
20:04 < piacentini> there were a lot of requests for it in the games survey
20:04 < [ksudoku]RedsH> yes we have not completely decided yet
20:05 < piacentini> k. is there anything we can help you with?
20:05 < dimsuz> [ksudoku]RedsH: but you know about implications?
20:05 < annma> what holds you back if i may ask?
20:05 < dimsuz> :)
20:05 < [ksudoku]RedsH> no, i was about to ask
20:05 < dimsuz> yup. I can help
20:05 < dimsuz> if needed :)
20:06  * pinotree raises his hand
20:06 < [ksudoku]RedsH> i need to know if joining kdegames influences:
20:06 < [ksudoku]RedsH> license
20:06 < [ksudoku]RedsH> possibility to make a windows port
20:06 < dimsuz> pinotree: ?
20:06 < piacentini> Well, if the game gets included in the tree (after review) you will automatically get millions of testers :)
20:06 < piacentini> as for the license
20:07  * pinotree is here too, konversation team
20:07 < pinotree> err
20:07 < pinotree> kombination team ;)
20:07 < dimsuz> :)
20:07 < [ksudoku]RedsH> how does the review work?
20:07 < annma> it needs a GPL eauivalent licence
20:07 < [ksudoku]RedsH> it has already
20:07 < [ksudoku]RedsH> GPL
20:07 < piacentini> so there is no change in the status
20:07 < annma> window port: by being in KDE svn your code will be fixed for windows
20:08 < annma> windows port
20:08 < piacentini> about the windows port: Kde 4 is being ported by windows and osx
20:08 < pinotree> ( http://developer.kde.org/policies/licensepolicy.html )
20:08 < [ksudoku]RedsH> but what do you think we should work on in order to join kdegames?
20:08 < dimsuz> [ksudoku]RedsH: kdelibs4 will be available for win32
20:08 < josef|vista> review is broader than just code review, e.g. the usability people frequently look at applications inside the released modules
20:08 < [ksudoku]RedsH> ok great
20:08 < annma> you need to have a working game with minimum doc
20:08 < annma> and all i18n
20:09 < annma> for translators to do their job
20:09 < dimsuz> [ksudoku]RedsH: currently ksudoku is qt3 only?
20:09 < [ksudoku]RedsH> is there any "standard" for playing interface, network gaming, graphics and so on?
20:09 < dimsuz> i mean not ported to qt4?
20:10 < [ksudoku]RedsH> we are working on it
20:10 < annma> we would like as many as possible default graphics in Oxygen theme for KDE4
20:10 < pinotree> [ksudoku]RedsH: well, it should be compliant about user interface
20:10 < pinotree> for example, menus, toolbars, labels
20:10 < [ksudoku]RedsH> yes yes
20:10 < pinotree> http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/index.html
20:10 < josef|vista> I know for a fact that for external projects it's really tough to switch to Qt4 although the time is coming now
20:11 < [ksudoku]Josel> we are currently working on a code review, before starting with doc and kde4 port
20:11 < [ksudoku]RedsH> and about save-file format?
20:11 < pinotree> no constraints
20:11 < [ksudoku]Josel> i have experience about kde4 and the first step is allready done (we are using CMake ;)
20:12 < annma> :)
20:12 < [ksudoku]RedsH> sounds?
20:12 < pinotree> of course, if the format is something alrady used (wildly), it's better
20:12 < pinotree> ogg
20:12 < piacentini> RedsH: to be bluntly honest, your game is in better shape than most of the ones in the kdegames module right now... I guess with Josel 's help you can get it into shape quickly for playground, and from then to kdereview
20:12 < annma> sounds: no constraints although unifying stuff would be good
20:12 < [ksudoku]RedsH> thanks
20:12 < [ksudoku]RedsH> josel had an interesting idea
20:12 < [ksudoku]RedsH> :
20:13 < piacentini> For sounds, you will need to play via Phonon. Easy to setup once you are in kde4
20:13 < [ksudoku]RedsH> multiplayer mode for ksudoku
20:13 < josef|vista> pinotree, [ksudoku]RedsH: well there is no central authority on that but we (ggz) always try to consolidate in the area of file formats so since we also have a sudoku game we'd be glad to accept whichever format is established first
20:13 < pinotree> josef|vista: erm... what did i say? :)
20:14 < [ksudoku]RedsH> excuse the ignorance: what is the standard for multiplayer, internet highscores for kdegames?
20:14 < josef|vista> that's a later topic for today :)
20:14 < annma> ;)
20:14 < [ksudoku]RedsH> re-excuse the ignorance..
20:14 < pinotree> which point of view from?
20:14 < piacentini> Well, I propose that we let RedsH consider the suggestions so far...
20:15 < piacentini> and we can discuss the kggzmod topic?
20:15 < piacentini> josef?
20:15 < josef|vista> yep
20:15 < josef|vista> this is a really old topic already
20:15 < pinotree> (yeah...)
20:16 < dimsuz> i'm not aware...
20:16 < josef|vista> so the idea is to provide a standard platform for networking for all sorts of toolkits
20:16 < dimsuz> perhaps others too ;)
20:16 < josef|vista> for some reason we never really provided convenience APIs for the programming style of these toolkits but recently we started to do it
20:16 < josef|vista> so for KDE games, there is now an API in the works to hook up with GGZ in a really easy way
20:17 < dimsuz> josef|vista: are they pure C++? some additional libs maybe?
20:17 < josef|vista> they're pure Qt-based classes
20:17 < josef|vista> very easy signal+slots concepts
20:17 < dimsuz> ok
20:17 < josef|vista> let me show you an (ugly) picture
20:17 < josef|vista> http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/~josef/gamedev-support.png
20:17 < dimsuz> any docs, tutorials?
20:17 < piacentini> where is it now in svn? 
20:18 < josef|vista> pinotree: http://svn.ggzgamingzone.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/browser/trunk/kde-games/lib/kggzmod
20:18 < josef|vista> err, piacentini 
20:18 < josef|vista> let me explain how it works since there is not really a tutorial yet (but it's already included in our gamedev guide)
20:19 -!- MuJ [i=chryse at hell.fiveam.org] has joined #kdegames
20:19 -!- zorglu_ [n=zorglub at 206.43.102-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #kdegames
20:19 < josef|vista> kggzmod is the low-level interface which you call to connect you to a game server
20:19 < MuJ> we have games? O_o
20:19 < josef|vista> as soon as this has happened, you can exchange messages with it...
20:19 < josef|vista> this is where ggzcomm cames in, which is similar to dcopidl2cpp... it takes a formal protocol description and generates the code for it
20:19 < dimsuz> cool
20:20 < josef|vista> on top of that we provide standard dialogs for player management and the like
20:20 < josef|vista> we also have highscores but we'll see how we integrate this with kgame since there's already a highscore dialog
20:20 < pinotree> is ti able to do peer-to-peer connections? eg via xmpp
20:21  * dimsuz thinks that current kdegames highscores need fixing/redesign
20:21 < josef|vista> well widelands uses it for p2p-style gaming but it's not really optimised for it... I mean in the end you still want statistics stored somewhere, right?
20:22 < josef|vista> so the idea is that if you're in GGZ and a game wants p2p, it gives you a privacy warning (since you will have to reveal your identity) and then you connect to other players (e.g. with TCP or UDP) but stay connected to the GGZ server with a TCP connection
20:22 < pinotree> i suppose highscores could be disabled when in p2p
20:22 < pinotree> what about using xmpp instead of direct tcp connection?
20:22 < josef|vista> I know very little desktop games which really require p2p so far
20:23 < piacentini> so the proposal is to somehow have this API available in libkdegames, maybe integrating with or replacing the current highscores in the process?
20:23 < josef|vista> the idea was to integrate it as an input layer into kgame... which certainly means some kgame modifications but in general the abstraction of input sources shall remain
20:24 < josef|vista> but I haven't looked into the integration yet, I'm glad it works as it is so far :-)
20:24 < piacentini> i like the libkdegames integration idea
20:24 < piacentini> but someone has to code it :)
20:24 < josef|vista> also note that GNOME is now using GGZ and so the idea of having common networking protocols is good - it will make it easier to find other players online
20:24 < dimsuz> and we need libkdegames maintainer btw ;)
20:25 < josef|vista> netcat games.gnome.org 5688 :)
20:25 < piacentini> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGames/Multiplayer
20:26 < josef|vista> ugh.. he wrote my name wrong! :)
20:26 < piacentini> Well, I am all for a cross-desktop solution
20:26 -!- Parkotron [n=parker at dyn129-100-97-146.bc.uwo.ca] has joined #kdegames
20:27 < piacentini> And the idea of extending the kgame model means that porting efforts will be minimized for kdegames that already use it
20:27 < piacentini> But it is feasible to do this for kde4? I mean, which games can we try to hook up to ggz as a test?
20:27 < josef|vista> yes, that's the plan at least... but even if this won't work I think I can port 1-2 games to show how it can be done... I just cannot do all games, at least not in the coming days
20:28 < josef|vista> there are some games in kdegames which are very suitable
20:28 < josef|vista> kreversi, kwin4, etc. - for such games we already have a server and some other clients
20:28 < piacentini> kwin4 probably?
20:28 < piacentini> Maybe you can hook up with dimsuz and attempt it in KReversi? 
20:28 < josef|vista> dimsuz: be my guest :)
20:28 < dimsuz> I'm all yours ;-)
20:29 < dimsuz> josef|vista: see above :)
20:29 < piacentini> love these irc meetings :)
20:29 < piacentini> IIRC, currently there are two different highscore APIs in libkdegames
20:30 < piacentini> This is something we need to fix, this is probably a good opportunity to extend it to add network highscores saved in ggz
20:30 < dimsuz> piacentini: yes. simple and advanced one. The latter has bad usablity IMO
20:30 < dimsuz> it looks bloated
20:30 < piacentini> dimsuz: agreed
20:30 < piacentini> It is used only by two or three games, right?
20:31 < piacentini> Kmines
20:31 < josef|vista> we have figured out several score models (records, highscores, ratings, rankings) and if there are more we're glad to add them
20:31 < dimsuz> i haven't counted
20:31 < dimsuz> :)
20:31 < piacentini> Well, we could maybe do a review of this while integrating with ggz
20:31 < dimsuz> josef|vista: that's wonderful. if they won't look bloated like current khighscores are :)
20:31 < piacentini> keep the local one as simple as possible
20:31 < Parkotron> A while back (before I got a job) I was working on a KDE port of Robots. The available highscore systems frustrated me so I wrote my own.
20:32 < josef|vista> uh... for the local scores currently I use KMessageBox
20:32  * josef|vista hides
20:32 < piacentini> Well, if you look at other highscores (kmahjongg for example) replacing it by a Kmessage box is not really a bad idea :)
20:32 < josef|vista> lol
20:33 < [ksudoku]Josel> just a idea, one highscore model for puzzle games like ksudoku would be a highscore on daily puzzles
20:33 < dimsuz> pluginize highscores? ;-)
20:33 < piacentini> just joking, of course. We only need to work on the presentation, the simple highscores api in kdegames is perfectly fine for local games imo
20:33 < piacentini> Josel: in kmahjongg you already have highscore per layout
20:34 < josef|vista> just a note, we've got 3000+ players on the server and recalculating the highscores permanently takes a lot of CPU, so if we can improve this somehow by making it a better modular highscore system I'm very glad about this
20:34 < piacentini> So something like you are proposing is possible
20:34 < piacentini> Well, should we move on to other topics?
20:34 < dimsuz> yup
20:35 < josef|vista> yeah it's half-time already... I'll talk to dimsuz about the rest in email but I need an address
20:35 < dimsuz> let's move on - half an hour has passed already
20:35 < piacentini> Recap so far: ksudoku guys are STRONGLY considering joining :)
20:35 < annma> :))))
20:35 < piacentini> And dimsuz and josef will try to make a proof of concept connection to GGZ with Kreversi
20:35 < dimsuz> josef|vista: dimsuz at gmail.com
20:35 < josef|vista> thanks
20:36 < piacentini> Someone mentioned in the agenda about network games with jabber
20:36 < dimsuz> well, what about moving some games? remember we decided to give them some time to find a maintainer? :)
20:36 < [ksudoku]Josel> as far as it concerns me, i joined ksudoku in order to make ksudoku join kde-games :)
20:36 < [ksudoku]RedsH> lol
20:37 < piacentini> Well, I think we agreed to try the GGZ integration first, right?
20:37 < dimsuz> piacentini: before jabber you mean?
20:37 < piacentini> via existing abstraction of player input in KGame
20:37 < piacentini> dimsuz: yes, I think it is wise for us concentrate on one solution that is already working for Gnome
20:37 < josef|vista> GGZ already has some integration with Kopete and Gaim so maybe we can improve this and therefore achieve the two goals at once - but this is rather a mid-term goal for me
20:38 < dimsuz> of course
20:38 < piacentini> OK. As for the game removal (dimsuz)... Last time
20:38 < piacentini> we talked about a 3 month period before final decision
20:39 < dimsuz> piacentini: Actually I don't remember how long we wanted to wait
20:39 < dimsuz> ah. here's the answer
20:39 < piacentini> or something like that?
20:39 < dimsuz> :)
20:39 < dimsuz> ok
20:39 < piacentini> So here RENEWING THE CALL
20:39 < piacentini> if you want a game to stay, volunteer to maintain it :)
20:39 < annma> this has to be blogged
20:39 < [ksudoku]Josel> what are the unmaintained games now?
20:40 < piacentini> (btw, even if you volunteer, coolo/aacid/pinotree/johann may still cut it ?)
20:40 < piacentini> :)
20:40 < daren> ok, I'd like kbackgammon to stay. I can try to maintain it. I ported it to kde4.
20:40 < piacentini> daren: nice! Read your message on kdegames-devel
20:41 < dimsuz> daren: what was the problem with svn? did you do 'svn add' before doing 'svn diff'?
20:41 < annma> daren: can you update the wiki page please?
20:41 < dimsuz> daren: oh. I guess we can discuss this after the meeting :0
20:41 < daren> dimsuz: ok.
20:41 < piacentini> daren: so update the wiki man
20:41 < piacentini> and give it a try
20:42 < daren> annma: I can update the wiki, however I don't yet have an svn accoutn so haven't updated svn
20:42 < piacentini> I think we agreed that no work will be "wasted". Even if some games end up removed from the main package they would still be available somewhere in the kde tree
20:42 < dimsuz> piacentini: yes.
20:42 -!- danimo [n=danimo at kde/danimo] has joined #kdegames
20:43 < piacentini> daren: I think you should get a svn account
20:43 < piacentini> And start commiting
20:43 < josef|vista> welcome danimo old kbattleship guy :)
20:43 < danimo> heya!
20:43 < danimo> josef|vista: trying out windows ? :)
20:43 < daren> piacentini: I will.
20:43 < josef|vista> no, KDE 3.5.2 actually, I like this one more :)
20:44 < piacentini> why "old kbattleship guy?" I heard he was going to volunteer for SVG izing it
20:44 < piacentini> :)
20:44 < danimo> piacentini: I did? :)
20:44 < piacentini> didnt you?
20:44 < piacentini> maybe it was wishful thinking
20:44 < piacentini> :)
20:44 < danimo> prolly
20:44 < piacentini> ok, that one failed :)
20:44 < danimo> kbs has other problems honestly
20:45 < piacentini> What is your assesment of its status and feasibility for KDE4?
20:45 < piacentini> maybe ruphy can comment?
20:45 < dimsuz> piacentini: zhw was volonteered :)
20:46 < piacentini> K, so there are lots of volunteers. ruphy is listed in the SVG maintainers page, that is why I paged him
20:47 < dennis_p> I love how kbattleship has a stay clear zone around ships, that gives a strategy for carpet bombing, but the single cell ship undermines this.
20:47 < piacentini> BTW, Henrique (working on ksame) send me an email last week. He is a bit busy now, but we are going to work on adding the theme support via .desktop files to ksame and kmahjongg
20:47 < piacentini> Just entering into the "status update" phase of the meeting, as we have under 15 minutes to go
20:47 < dimsuz> piacentini: nice. will it be applicable for other games?
20:48 < piacentini> dimsuz: that is the idea
20:48 < piacentini> henrique would like to put it in libkdegames
20:48 < piacentini> so we could have a standard theme selection dialog
20:48 < piacentini> configurable (and subclassable) by each game
20:48 < dimsuz> niiice
20:48 < piacentini> subclassable? is that a word?
20:48 < dimsuz> at least i understand it ;)
20:49 < josef|vista> that's the schematisation of upcastable!
20:49 < piacentini> lol
20:49 < dimsuz> :D
20:49 < piacentini> any other status updates? If not, we can move on to discuss how to schedule these meetings :)
20:50 < piacentini> Ah, btw I have added the classic tileset to Kmahjongg as well. It has some issues
20:50 < piacentini> But it will be applied to kshisen soon
20:50 < piacentini> If you can try selecting, there is now default and classic as valid options
20:51 < dimsuz> piacentini: what about kmines? I've seen you now listed as maintainer
20:51 < dennis_p> Yes anybody updated SVG this month please say so
20:51 < piacentini> Yup, I was actually doing the graphics part of it first
20:51 < piacentini> Will try to commit something before the end of the year
20:52 < piacentini> Well, there are lots of commits during the first two weeks of November
20:52 < piacentini> things have just slowed down a bit, but it is probably a side effect of everyone wrapping up other projects before the end of the year
20:52 < piacentini> At least in my case it is :)
20:52  * dimsuz seen svg engine updates in Qt4.2.2 in qt-copy. will try it soon
20:53 < dennis_p> Or... Sinterklaas is in town
20:53 < dimsuz> :)
20:53 < piacentini> Guys, about the meeting schedule...
20:53 < dimsuz> yes
20:53 < piacentini> Do you prefer a set date (first of month)
20:53 < dimsuz> you want to roatate it?
20:53 < piacentini> Or a set day of week
20:54 < dimsuz> no preference here. let others decide ;)
20:54 < piacentini> Well, I believe that by setting it always to the 1st (or any other day) we automatically rotate the day of the week
20:54 < piacentini> and it creates a tradition, and let people that have fixed schedules maybe be able to attend eventually
20:54 < piacentini> The other problem is the time
20:54 < dimsuz> I agree
20:54 < dimsuz> should we rotate it?
20:54 < piacentini> This time works for all of us I think, with the exception of Asia/Australia
20:55 < dimsuz> and there is no overlap at all?
20:55 < piacentini> If we do it two hours later (every two months) it would be too bad for you?
20:55 < dimsuz> I'm fine with it.
20:55 < piacentini> Or maybe we can schedule two times
20:55 < piacentini> And alternate
20:56 < dennis_p> How about a stanadard revival of the current discussion at a later time? So that those with kids or australia as their location can comment on disussion and another discussion storm can commence and get logged and filed.
20:56 < piacentini> It is an idea
20:56 < [ksudoku]Josel> i would prefer it 2 hours earlier or later
20:56 < dimsuz> yup
20:56 < piacentini> And this time is good for all of you?
20:56 < piacentini> As it is now?
20:56 < dimsuz> yes
20:57 < dimsuz> but I wont oppose if it will be 2 hours later
20:57 < dbdkmezz> yes
20:57 < piacentini> Because honestly it affects Ian the most, so I can maybe update with him afgter each meeting
20:57 < piacentini> OK, let us keep it as it is now
20:57 < piacentini> Seems to be working
20:57 < dimsuz> in fact it is even better. I pay half-price for internet after midnight ;-)
20:57 < piacentini> dimsuz: lol
20:57 < piacentini> I will check the world clock
20:57 < piacentini> To see if two hours makes a difference
20:57 < dimsuz> ok
20:58 < piacentini> It might make things easier for guys in America as well
20:58 < dimsuz> one minute to go ;)
20:58 < dennis_p> :-)
20:58 < dimsuz> countdown someone? ;)
20:58 < dennis_p> Quick or be finned
20:58 < dimsuz> :D
20:58 < Dotato> oh boy, one minute, then let me say hi and bye to you all on the same time
20:58 < josef|vista> I think the 1st of January is difficult for me (or others) but generally I'm fine with this
20:58 < piacentini> josef|vista: I need to talk with you about some vista things :)
20:58 < dimsuz> josef|vista: lol
20:59 < piacentini> Well
20:59 < piacentini> 1st of january will not work for anyone
20:59 < piacentini> This has to be an exception
20:59 < josef|vista> piacentini: a minha vista daqui é ótimo... só isso o nome :)
20:59 < dimsuz> except very geeked geeks :)
20:59 < piacentini> ok, so the first one to suggest a date for january wins
21:00 < dimsuz> 27 Jan
21:00 < piacentini> lol
21:00 < piacentini> Well, I guess you got us
21:00 < dimsuz> out from my mind. don't ask me why ;)
21:00 < dimsuz> well, it appears to be Saturday.
21:00 < piacentini> What we should probably do ( a suggestion), is to cancel the january meeting
21:01 < dimsuz> that's an option
21:01 < dimsuz> at least we can adjust that later on ML
21:01 < MuJ> just make it second tuesday of every month ;)
21:01 < piacentini> And of course, we are all free to hang up here 
21:02 < dimsuz> yes
21:02 < piacentini> MuJ: what day is the second tuesday of january?
21:02 < MuJ> uumm... tuesday?
21:02 < piacentini> day of the month...
21:02 < MuJ> 9th
21:03 < piacentini> OK, so you called an informal gathering on the 9th
21:03 < piacentini> I will post it later to the ml
21:03 < piacentini> your fault
21:03 < MuJ> =)
21:03 < MuJ> sure.. blame me! =D
21:03 < MuJ> point and laugh.. now, everybody!
21:03 < piacentini> It could be cool for status updates of holiday coding
21:04 < piacentini> Or status updates of holiday non-coding
21:04 < piacentini> more likely
21:04 < MuJ> status update for your holiday beer situation
21:04 < dimsuz> lol
21:04 < piacentini> well, meeting has ended already