Inactive mailing lists

Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss joseph at kde.org
Fri Apr 28 13:30:55 BST 2023 

Hi Ben, thank you as well as Nico for the information, it is very helpful!

If I understood correctly, there are at least these 3 categories for the 
mailing lists:

  1. bug reports lists
  2. commit filter lists
  3. discussion lists

Perhaps a description of the different types of lists can be added to 
https://mail.kde.org/? And a description tag can be added to the lists 
at https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo? Something like:

  - Kdepim-bugs: "[bug-reports] KDE PIM bug list"
  - Kexi-devel: "[commit-filter] For developers' discussion about KEXI"
  - GCompris-devel: "[discussion] GCompris developers list"

And for lists that mix the above:
  - kde-multimedia: "[discussion, bug-reports] For discussion of 
multimedia (sound/video) issues under KDE"

I don't think these differences are immediately clear and perhaps 
information about the different functions of the lists plus tags in the 
list descriptions will help new KDE contributors find the right channels 
for communication. (I will send a future mail about directing 
contributors to the different channels of communication.)

BTW the information you sent applies to many of the other 130 mailing 
lists. However, in response to your three points below, I will focus on 
the 51 mailing lists that seemed inactive in order keep the discussion 
contained. These lists are arguably lower-hanging fruit to make 
decisions about.

On 4/28/23 11:59, Ben Cooksley wrote:
> HI Joseph,
> 
> Couple of things to note here:
> 
> 1) Some of these mailing lists deliberately have archiving disabled, so
> Mailman's archives cannot be relied on to determine if a list is still
> active or not. This is particularly the case for *-bugs mailing lists. I
> should note though that there is alternative functionality within Bugzilla
> that can replicate this functionality, so a mailing list does not have to
> be used here (although some may prefer this for their email filters)

I see no reason to close *-bugs lists if they are being used. However, 
if the functionality is offered somewhere else AND the lists are not 
being used, I think it makes sense to close them down. Not sure how to 
determine that, though. Any suggestions?

Regarding disabled archives, that means these 3 *-bugs mailing lists 
likely have archives disabled:
  * Cantor-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/cantor-bugs
  * kde-games-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-games-bugs
  * neon-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/neon-bugs

And this one either turned off archives in 2008 or is inactive:
  * kdelibs-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kdelibs-bugs

> 2) Some of these lists are certainly defunct (kde-dashboard for one) and
> can definitely be closed down

Should there be outreach to the moderator of a list before determining 
it is defunct? How does one contact the moderator (other than by posting 
to the list directly)? Some lists may have low activity but still be 
active and worth keeping open.

Re what Johnny wrote: I agree, defunct lists should be archived. Do we 
have a preferred way to do that? There is at least precedent from 
KWrite-devel to use "Mailing list ARChives" (https://marc.info/).

> 3) Some of the lists are commit filter lists which are no longer operating
> (khtml-cvs for one) and should be archived.

I am not exactly sure what a commit filter list is, but I can guess and 
it seemed there were several. I assume these fall into that category:

  * Kde-buildsystem: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-buildsystem
  * Marble-commits: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/marble-commits
  * Ksecretservice-devel: 
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/ksecretservice-devel
  * Kde-speech: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-speech
https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi-devel
  * Kexi-devel: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi-devel

And perhaps this (although it seems there is a mix of automated and 
discussion posts):

  * kopete-devel: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kopete-devel

The 4 *-bugs lists plus the 5 lists above plus khtml-cvs = 10 mailing 
lists. The question remains: of the 41 remaining mailing lists how to 
decide which are defunct and what to do with them?

Not trying to make more work for you or anyone else, but I think closing 
down inactive channels could be a (small) step in the direction of 
strengthening internal communication.

Don't hesitate to let me know what I can do to help with this.

Cheers,
Joseph

> Cheers,
> Ben
> 
> On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 9:52 AM Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss <joseph at kde.org>
> wrote:
> 
>> Cross-posting to the relevant mailing lists.
>>
>> To discuss, please answer to kde-community at kde.org.
>>
>> tl;dr There are several inactive or unused lists of the 181 mailing
>> lists at KDE. What do we want to do with them?
>>
>> This is a post about inactive or unused mailing lists. For a general
>> discussion about (active) mailing lists at KDE, please start a new
>> thread or wait until I address that, likely in the very near future.
>>
>> _Inactive Mailing Lists_
>>
>> For a better understanding of what works and what needs improvement in
>> KDE's internal communications, I started by looking at the 181 mailing
>> lists publicly listed at:
>>
>>     https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/
>>
>> Here I see 51 mailing lists which might be considered inactive, some of
>> which were never used at all. There may be more to add to this upon
>> further inspection, but these seem like a good place to start.
>>
>> By inactive I mean there has been very low or no activity in the past
>> 2-3 years at least, and for most lists the last post was 4+ years ago.
>> For several of these lists, there are long gaps in activity, often with
>> no community responses to the most recent posts.
>>
>> The 51 mailing lists are included at the end of this email.
>>
>> Importantly, I know a list with infrequent activity is *not* the same as
>> a list that has no activity. Some communities do not need regular
>> communication for that community to be active. If you see your
>> community's mailing list here and think it is a mistake, please let me
>> know! My apologies in advance if this is the case.
>>
>> Crucially, do not interpret an inactive mailing list to mean a project
>> is inactive. It only means the mailing list is not a frequently used
>> channel of communication. There are many other channels for community
>> discussion (e.g., Matrix, Discuss, etc.).
>>
>> _Some Questions To The KDE Community_
>>
>>    * What do we want to do with inactive or unused mailing lists?
>>
>>    * Is there a policy for retiring inactive lists? I didn't see anything
>> at the Community Wiki. [1]
>>
>>    * Does KDE have internal infrastructure to archive mailing lists for
>> posterity? I see kwrite-devel [2] archived old posts at the "Mailing
>> list ARChives" [3].
>>
>>    * Do we want to nudge traffic from low activity mailing lists to
>> somewhere with generally higher activity (specifically, I am thinking
>> Discuss)? I can imagine being in a more active online space could
>> increase general participation for otherwise low activity groups.
>>
>> _Inactive Lists: To Close Or Not To Close_
>>
>> I am sure there are reasons both for and against closing mailing lists.
>> Here are just some reasons I can think of to close inactive ones:
>>
>>    * The more communication channels there are, the more fractured KDE's
>> communication is.
>>
>>    * It may not be obvious to new (or even old) contributors that a list
>> is no longer in use, resulting in wasted energy signing up for an
>> inactive one.
>>
>>    * Trying to engage with an inactive list may reduce motivation for
>> futher contributions from members, especially when posts go unanswered.
>>
>>    * Moving some communities to more lively platforms may increase their
>> overall activity.
>>
>>    * There could be a slight efficiency/ecological benefit for KDE's
>> server infrastructure by removing or deactivating unused services.
>>
>> Pleae keep in mind: I am not judging the value of any particular group
>> by pointing out low activity, or arguing we need to close any specific
>> list. If there is a reason -- any reason at all -- to keep a list open,
>> then let's keep it open! I myself like mailing lists for various forms
>> of communication (announcements, long-form discussion, information which
>> I want to archive locally for future reference, etc.).
>>
>> If I made any mistakes in my summary here, please let me know. It is a
>> challenge to go through 181 lists and not make any errors, though I
>> tried my best not to.
>>
>> I look forward to reading your thoughts and suggestions!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Joseph
>>
>> [1] https://community.kde.org/Infrastructure/Mailing-Lists
>> [2] https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kwrite-devel
>> [3] https://marc.info/
>>
>> # Overview
>>
>> Of the 181 mailing lists listed publicly, I found the following:
>>
>>    * 12 are lists that have never been used and 1 was already closed
>>    * 27 are potentially-inactive general lists
>>    * 11 are potentially-inactive language or country-specific lists
>>
>> # Unused / Closed Mailing Lists [13 Lists]
>>
>> ## Never Used [12 lists] ("No messages have been posted to this list
>> yet, so the archives are currently empty.")
>>
>>    * Calligra-author: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/calligra-author
>>    * Cantor-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/cantor-bugs
>>    * Gcompris-espanol:
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/gcompris-espanol
>>    * Kde-dashboard: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-dashboard
>>    * kde-games-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-games-bugs
>>    * Kde-i18n-it: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-i18n-it
>>    * Kde-l10n-my: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-l10n-my
>>    * Kde-l10n-sw: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-l10n-sw
>>    * KDE-Look: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-look
>>    * Kde-partnership: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-partnership
>>    * Kdepim-builds: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kdepim-builds
>>    * neon-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/neon-bugs
>>
>> ## Officially Closed [1 list]
>>
>>    * kde-nonlinux: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-nonlinux
>>
>> # Inactive General Lists [27 lists]
>>
>> ## Currently Inactive With Almost No Previous Activity [5 lists]
>>
>>    * kde-artists: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-artists
>>    * Heaptrack: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/heaptrack
>>    * CuteHMI: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/cutehmi
>>    * Khtml-cvs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/khtml-cvs
>>    * Cki-attendees: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/cki-attendees
>>
>> ## Currently Inactive With Low Previous Activity [2 lists]
>>
>>    * Snorenotify: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/snorenotify
>>    * KXStitch: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kxstitch
>>
>> ## Currently Inactive But Previously Active [16 lists]
>>
>>    * Choquk-devel: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/choqok-devel
>>    * Kde-embedded: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-embedded
>>    * Kde-buildsystem: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-buildsystem
>>    * WikiToLearn: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitolearn
>>    * Marble-commits: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/marble-commits
>>    * Ksecretservice-devel:
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/ksecretservice-devel
>>    * KDE-Telepathy: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-telepathy
>>    * Kde-speech: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-speech
>>    * Kexi: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
>>    * Enterprise: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/enterprise
>>    * Marble: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/marble
>>    * kde-women: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-women
>>    * kde-usa: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-usa
>>    * kopete-devel: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kopete-devel
>>    * Kde-scm-interest:
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-scm-interest
>>    * Kexi-devel: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi-devel
>>
>> ## No Activity In 7+ Years [4 lists]
>>
>>    * SymbolEditor: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/symboleditor
>>    * Gcompris-portugues:
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/gcompris-portugues
>>    * kdelibs-bugs: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kdelibs-bugs
>>    * QmlWeb: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/qmlweb
>>
>> # Inactive Language/Country-Specific Mailing Lists [11 lists]
>>
>> ## Currently Inactive With Almost No Previous Activity [2 lists]
>>
>>    * Kde-i18n-eu: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-i18n-eu
>>    * Kde-edu-pt_br: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-edu-pt_br
>>
>> ## Currently Inactive But Previously Active [5 lists]
>>
>>    * Kde-i18n-uk: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-i18n-uk
>>    * KDE-india: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-india
>>    * Kde-l10n-in: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-l10n-in
>>    * Kde-latam: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-latam
>>    * Kde-l10n-kn: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-l10n-kn
>>
>> ## No Activity In 7+ Years [3 lists]
>>
>>    * Kde-el: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-el
>>    * kde-mexico: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-mexico
>>    * Kde-l10n-si: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-l10n-si
>>
>> ## Infrequently Active [1 list]
>>
>>    * KDE-Italia: https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-italia
>>
>> --
>> Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss
>> KDE Internal Communications & KDE Eco Community Manager
>> OpenPGP: 8FC5 4178 DC44 AD55 08E7 DF57 453E 5746 59A6 C06F
>> Matrix: @joseph:kde.org
>>
>> Generally available Monday-Thursday from 10-16h CET/CEST. Outside of
>> these times it may take a little longer for me to respond.
>>
>> KDE Eco: Building Energy-Efficient Free Software!
>> Website: https://eco.kde.org
>> Mastodon: @be4foss at floss.social
>>
>>
> 

-- 
Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss
KDE Internal Communications & KDE Eco Community Manager
OpenPGP: 8FC5 4178 DC44 AD55 08E7 DF57 453E 5746 59A6 C06F
Matrix: @joseph:kde.org

Generally available Monday-Thursday from 10-16h CET/CEST. Outside of 
these times it may take a little longer for me to respond.

KDE Eco: Building Energy-Efficient Free Software!
Website: https://eco.kde.org
Mastodon: @be4foss at floss.social

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