[kde-china] Fwd: Rosetta and Upstream

[Aron Xu]

你误会了，这是kubuntu-devel里有人问起，所以应该回复到那里，并没有别的意思。
Kubuntu正在搞一个Project Timelord，对上下游问题很敏感。


在2009-11-10，"Ni Hui" <shuizhuyuanluo在126.com> 写道：
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>..................................................................
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>http://www.linux-archive.org/kubuntu-development/276454-rosetta-upstream.html
>
>someone interested 说的是我吧...   ;)
>看来这条提交摘要引起关注了。。。
>我的那次修改的确改了很多用词风格，以及笔误
>原因有：
>程序内用词保持一致，比如"year"，有的地方翻成“年”，有的地方是“年份”
>和 kde 环境全局保持一直，比如"load"，kde 其它程序都是翻成“装入”的
>
>我说 launchpad 翻译质量不好，请不要单单看我的改动。
>因为 amarok 这个 po 本身比较大，我知道 review 是非常耗时耗精力，而且很难保证 review 后就没有大的问题。
>aronxu 已经三次复查，眼睛都疼了，也不是全部改正得过来的，可想而知最初的 launchpad 翻译文件是如何的了....
>aronxu 复查用去约 4 小时，我查的时候用了 5 小时。
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>it would have been much constructive to teach the translators what was wrong
>or not matching their guidelines or glossary of terms
>这件事想做，但已经没办法了(历史因素)，launchpad 上翻译 amarok 的人都不知道在哪儿，哪句是谁做的也不知道。
>总之，就现在而言，情况正在慢慢变好，期望 timelord 有突破。
>我个人更喜欢 knetworkmanager 那样子，翻译者又可以参与翻译，又能知道自己应该如何实行，又能从 reviewer 那边得到回馈，良性促进(其实
>有些类似于 gnome-l10n 那样子，而 launchpad 还是历史因素，没有这个流程)
>个人认为 launchpad 上的翻译还没有足够好到可以直接提交上游，建议 push 的时候弄个流程，由翻译者直接提交邮件列表，这样更方便回馈。
>amarok 这个文件也许后无来者了～
>不知 lieex 意见如何。
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>aronxu 加油！
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>谢谢 aronxu 向老外解释～～  :P
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>nihui
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>ps:我很久以前也在 launchpad 上面做过翻译，后来因为对质量实在看不下去才翻译上游文件的......
>ubuntu-china 本地化队伍加油！
>
>
>在 星期二 10 十一月 2009 02:10:36，Aron Xu 写道：
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Aron Xu <happyaron.xu在gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 at 1:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: Rosetta and Upstream
>> To: David Planella <david.planella在ubuntu.com>
>> Cc: Kubuntu Developer Discussion <kubuntu-devel在lists.ubuntu.com>,
>> KDE-China <kde-china在kde.org>
>>
>>
>> Thus, I feel kind of difficult to cooperate with upstream even though
>> I have upstream commit right. Please don't consider me as part of
>> upstream in my following messages because I will take mostly the
>> opinions from downstream now, :)
>>
>> For quality, translations directly on LP for KDE applications are
>> still far behind upstream due to some reasons that related to former
>> lacking coordination on Ubuntu Simplified Chinese Translators, and it
>> is changing rapidly at present. But this commit is really kind of
>> puzzling because I have reviewed that file with caution before commit
>> to repository. That long diff produced by this commit is showing its
>> uselessness, I think and I have read the diff line-by-line just like
>> what the commit message documented. Mostly this commit changed a style
>> of translation, which style I guess is more suitable for the
>> reviewer's taste. I don't believe a file can contain such a large
>> quantity of mistakes after my review, or many users may have already
>> complained about translations I've worked on, :)
>>
>> Taking this opportunity, I would like to talk about something I got
>> when working on translations downstream as well as upstream.
>>
>> Firstly, it is a hard job when communicating each other. There ARE
>> people upstream don't like Launchpad unreasonable, maybe there was
>> some bad impression that LP had ever given them. Also people familiar
>> with LP like to take it's advantages such as convenience, and perhaps
>> don't like to go upstream very much.
>>
>> Secondly, Kubuntu users and contributors are evidently far less than
>> Ubuntu, at least I can confirm this in the Greater China user circles.
>> Yesterday somebody was talking with me about there are more
>> "well-known" translators working for GNOME as well as Ubuntu than that
>> on KDE and Kubuntu.
>>
>> Thirdly, the release time of KDE and Kubuntu is something not good for
>> communication and cooperation. The integration of GNOME upstream and
>> Ubuntu downstream in zh_CN is getting very well and most of best
>> translators on Ubuntu are sent upstream. But for KDE, it is really
>> difficult even when I want to write a plan for those who on downstream
>> team want to work for upstream, so they just do it on LP, leave it
>> there. And upstream don't like to accept the translations due to maybe
>> some issues, either.
>>
>> Forthly, zh_CN KDE upstream is lacking hands but I still haven't get a
>> very proper way to provide such assistance from Ubuntu Simplified
>> Chinese Translators that can make both sides happy. I can commit the
>> reviewed messages to KDE svn directly but this will sure make some
>> people unhappy both sides like this time.
>>
>> Things might look to be ridiculous to have such a conflict (this
>> commit, I mean) taking place, because Lie_Ex is the person who take
>> the most maintainace work on KDE upstream currently, but the fact is
>> some other people may don't like LP and take a special care on what
>> was originated from LP, and such situation may caused by a natural
>> reaction that LP had given them a bad impression before as I've
>> mentioned.
>>
>> It could be something unsuitable for upstream leaving such comment on
>> downstream contributions since we are working on providing a better
>> result for users and a better free software community. We need more
>> and more communication and find out a way to cooperate then make it a
>> better eco-system. The way will differ from Ubuntu/Gnome, because we
>> have quite different situations.
>>
>> I believe such conflicts between upstream and downstream are not the
>> only example. So I suggest that before our making any plan on Project
>> TimeLord (or just the translation part), let's take a more
>> comprehensive discussion on the current state of various languages'
>> Ubuntu Translators team when they working with their respective
>> upstream teams, and further more, what is the better way to work with
>> upstream, how to set up a healthy eco-system. This may lead our work
>> to a more reasonable and effective one.
>>
>> As for Project Timelord, changes on translations cannot drop the
>> translation teams and users away then just write out a plan. We need
>> to know what our translators and users are thinking and doing but not
>> only some of developers and upstream voices. We are facing our users
>> and co-working with our teams, not only developers can tell the whole
>> things and we need to hear more from others. Contributors and users
>> are our work's key and need most care, I suppose.
>>
>> Comments welcomed, :)
>>
>> PS: I am CCing this mail to kde-china在kde.org, hopefully can make
>> someone interested join our discussion.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Aron Xu
>>
>> 2009/11/9 David Planella <david.planella在ubuntu.com>:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > El ds 07 de 11 de 2009 a les 12:32 +0100, en/na Harald Sitter va
>> >
>> > escriure:
>> >> What zh_cn upstream thinks of upstreamed rosetta translations:
>> >
>> > [...]
>> >
>> >> For reference: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/?rev=1046024&view=rev
>> >>
>> >> I suppose you all know by now how that makes me feel :(
>> >
>> > Let's put this into context, after a chat with Aron Xu, who works on
>> > coordinating the Ubuntu Simplified Chinese team (and has also got commit
>> > rights on KDE upstream).
>> >
>> > The Ubuntu Simplified Chinese translations team noticed that the Amarok
>> > translation was not complete upstream and that no one was working on it,
>> > so they took the translation from Launchpad, reviewed it and sent it
>> > upstream.
>> >
>> > The translation apparently did not meet the KDE upstream standards,
>> > which is fair enough. In my opinion though, it would have been much
>> > constructive to teach the translators what was wrong or not matching
>> > their guidelines or glossary of terms rather than writing a commit
>> > message which in my oppinion sounds unfair to the work of those
>> > translators doing both the translation and upstreaming.
>> >
>> > From my point of view, the Simplified Chinese Ubuntu translators did the
>> > right thing. If there were something to improve, I could only think of
>> > more communication.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > David.
>> >
>> > P.S. In case they want to add any comments, I'm CC'ing Aron and Lie_Ex,
>> > who have been leading an effort to improve the quality of K/Ubuntu
>> > Simplified Chinese and in my opinion are doing an awesome job at it.
>> >
>> > --
>> > David Planella
>> > Ubuntu Translations Coordinator
>> > david(dot)planella(at)ubuntu(dot)com
>> > www.ubuntu.com
>>
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>
>--
>http://shuizhuyuanluo.blog.163.com/