[Kde-accessibility] [kde-guidelines] List view

[Thomas Pfeiffer]

On 06.06.2013 00:10, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2013, 23:07:29 schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer:
>> For me, list boxes are a relic of the past that simply should go away.
> Objection! Any file manager has a list view either with simple view, or
> detailled, or preview (as far as I know that are the terms).

Yes, and because of the discoverability and accessibility problems, 
Dolphin (or maybe the kdelibs team, not sure) for example created the 
"click green plus sign to select" feature. And another way to 
multi-select (though only adjacent files) is to drag a frame with the mouse.
Unless the Qt list widget has these features, it is far less usable than 
file managers.

> After all we need this widget/control/item to define when and how it should be
> used. If you think a list view must not get implemented with only keyboard
> access then we should add something like "If the list view has multiple
> selection property apply check boxes to each item in order to faciliate
> access."

Yes. That's basically what I meant by "I would not recommend a simple 
list box for multi-selection". For single selection with enough space 
available in the UI, a list box is fine. If users have to be able to 
select multiple items at a time, they have to be able to do it by mouse 
only (and by keyboard only as well, of course).
So it looks like we do agree after all :)

> I would write it as "Consider to use...", and would add some thoughts when
> check boxes are really recommended (lengthy lists, complex selection...?) and
> when rather not (short lists, plain interface, expert users...).

Even for expert users with an on-screen keyboard they would still be a 
pain to use for multi-selection. I'd only recommend them if users 
usually only select a single item.

>> For shorter lists, a check box list is better than a simple list box because
>> it allows to select single or multiple items without using the keyboard.
> Check boxes makes a list heavier just due to the additional, dispensable
> widgets/controls. They are not a solution of striking simplicity.

I agree that check box lists do not look very nice and leightweight, but 
I'd prefer discoverability and accessibility over a clean look here.

>> To be honest: I would not recommend a simple list box for multi-selection at
>> all, for a simple reason: Only being able to select multiple elements with
>> the help of the keyboard is both a discoverability and accessibility
>> problem. People not used to them have no clue that they have to hold shift
>> or ctrl for multi selection and people who cannot use a keyboard have to
>> switch between on-screen keyboard and list box, which I can't imagine to
> Agreed. But KDE users are not lusers.

I'd still try to avoid obstacles for new users if possible. In the case 
described above ("expert UI", rarely multi-select, not too long list) 
they may still be okay, though.

I've CC'ed the accessibility list because I'd like to hear what they 
think about list boxes and on-screen keyboards.