delete or not to delete that is the question

[Koos Pol]

Hi Aaron,

As I have history in authoring technical documentation, I share your 
position and sentiment. Writing good documentation for end users is a 
daunting task. Even if I'm generally very happy and content with KMM, 
you are raising valid points. FWIW.

Cheers,
Koos


On 13-12-2020 18:27, Aaron Mehl wrote:
> Hi again, thanks for the response.
> I am actually not just a user, but I work in Technical Communications.
> What I was writing was based on my experience and industry standards.
> I am actually trying to understand how the program works.  I am 
> writing procedures for accounts and hope it will grow into a users 
> manual in addition to the current Handbook which is more descriptive.
> I can't, ultimately change they way KMyMoney works. But I can point 
> out, that given enough time we all can learn to use any program, 
> whether or not certain aspects of it are confusing.
> That said, when you wrote "it may have been a little confusing at 
> first", I think you hit the nail on the head. For a new user it is a 
> bit confusing. Like I noted using the K.i.s.s. method and striving for 
> consistency gives users clues of how to use the program.
>
> In Technical Communications, we don't use the passive voice. This also 
> means avoiding "would", "could", and "should". Good writing uses 
> clear, short, and to the point directions. If they need to add and 
> account, which it seems they do, then write: To create an account do 
> [this]. To create an institution do [this]. The interface needs to 
> give the normal and common situation. Exceptions to that rule can be 
> dealt with later. Maybe I don't understand. A checking account is 
> housed in a Bank. So the normal action is to have an institution and 
> an account in it.
>
> I do see situations where an institution isn't needed, such as an EBT 
> card. (food assistance money). But in the wizard it feels like I must 
> add an account, even though I can just click next.
> Still having menu items that don't do anything is confusing. Whether 
> it has been done that way before or not.
>
> This is already more than enough for one email.
> Thanks for your time,
> Aaron
>
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 11:25:37 AM EST, Brendan Coupe 
> <brendan at coupeware.com> wrote:
>
>
> Just to be clear, you are "A" user, not the only user. I am also "A"
> user and I disagree with most of what you complained about. I've been
> a user for 15+ years so I may be more used to the UI issues. KMM
> definitely has some rough spots (investments need work, matching OFX
> imports with no limit on time frame is a huge problem for me).
>
> You can delete an account, but only if it has no transactions in it.
> Did you read the link that Thomas sent you?
>
> Do you realize what happens if you delete an account and all of the
> transactions in it? It would delete the transactions from all other
> accounts that have transfers and from assigned categories. Not
> something I want to do do if that account was used for real
> transactions. The balance on any account that had a transfer with it
> would be off.
>
> As far as the UI debate goes, I think it's settled. I looked in my
> Firefox and LibreOffice menus and there are grayed out / disabled
> options in both. I think getting rid of options rather than disabling
> them is a terrible idea. Maybe you want them to remain active but
> instead of working, they popup a dialog box explaining why they are
> disabled. I think it's very obvious when it comes to deleting accounts
> but it wouldn't hurt to give the user more info. I ran into this when
> trying to close investment accounts and I had to close all of the
> stocks in it first. Took me a few minutes to remember that.
>
> When I'm done with an account, I simply close the account. That does
> not affect any accounts that have transfers with the closed account
> and it allows me to reopen it if I need to change anything linked to
> it.
>
> As far as institutions go, it may have been a little confusing at
> first, but I like the way it is. Generally my banks are grouped by
> institution and other things that are mostly one of a kind (Gift
> Cards, Cash) are not assigned to an institution. I would not miss
> institutions if they were gone but I fail to see how it's confusing.
> Maybe an option in the KMM settings to turn off institutions would
> help. Maybe a "Skip" button in the dialog you referenced would make
> more sense even though the "Next" button does the same thing if you
> leave everything blank.
>
> If you have a problem with the wording in various dialog boxes or in
> other parts of the program, I suggest you submit a wishlist item via
> the bug tracker. You should be as specific as possible and if the
> developers agree, changes like this can happen very quickly. This
> means explaining why you think it's confusing and your suggestion on
> how it should be changed.
>
> In your institution complaint, maybe changing the wording to "If you
> would like to assign this account to an institution... Otherwise,
> just click "Next"."
>
> Maybe a separate wishlist item to disable institutions in the KMM 
> settings.
>
> If you want KMM to change for the better, I suggest lots of details on
> one issue at a time as wishlist items that can be tracked and assigned
> to a developer. They are very open to user suggestions.
>
> ----
> Brendan Coupe
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:10 AM Aaron Mehl <mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I am not so sure that its a UI debate. I am asking about a function. 
> The fact that it is in the interface is secondary. I as a user open an 
> account at a bank. I decide to close that account. I decide to switch 
> banks. I as a user might want to keep the records of that closed 
> account or I might want to remove every trace of it. I as a user might 
> want to not use a part of the interface, it is my choice.
> >
> > Now once the program lets me do what I need to do we can talk about 
> the UI issue. There is a rule call K.I.S.S. which says that the UI 
> should be simple and intuitive. If a user has to hunt around to find 
> something on an interface the user gets frustrated and looks for 
> another program. The UI debate you are talking about is from the 
> developers side. This I guess presupposes that the user is a developer....
> >
> > Overall KMyMoney works well. But the interface is full of fluff. 
> Fluff is when the interface is jam packed with too many ways to do the 
> same thing and then no ways to do others among other issues. The issue 
> of consistency of how menus and dialog boxes work where parallel 
> functions do different things. Users expect that clicking on New 
> Institution and New Account will give me the same result.
> > Other Issues are the text on the dialog boxes and wizards. These 
> need to me clear and concise and consistent as well. For example I 
> open the New Account wizard and the first thing I see is new 
> institution. I included a screen capture of the text. It starts with 
> the word 'If'. If means a few things. A bank account can exist without 
> a bank? If implies that an institution is optional or maybe not 
> important. This would confuse a user. It won't confuse a developer 
> since he built the program.
> >
> > Can I close/delete an account in KMyMoney? If so, how. If not why? 
> If there is a good reason why I can't delete an account, then it 
> shouldn't be in the UI to confuse the user, never-mind the UI debate. 
> The program should I hope put the user first.
> > Thank you for answering me.
> > Aaron
> >
> > On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 02:11:45 AM EST, Thomas Baumgart 
> <thb at net-bembel.de <mailto:thb at net-bembel.de>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Aaron,
> >
> >
> > On Sonntag, 13. Dezember 2020 02:01:49 CET Aaron Mehl wrote:
> >
> > >  hmn, if this is true, then why is it in the menu?Aaron
> >
> > That is a UI debate and there is the other party that argues to 
> always keep the options in the menus and disable them so that the user 
> sees they exist but cannot use them.
> >
> > Anyway, the prohibited deletion of accounts is by design and 
> documented in 
> https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/extragear-office/kmymoney/details.accounts.delete.html 
> <https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/extragear-office/kmymoney/details.accounts.delete.html>
> >
> >
> > >    On Saturday, December 12, 2020, 07:28:35 PM EST, Brendan Coupe 
> <brendan at coupeware.com <mailto:brendan at coupeware.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >  I don't think you can delete an account if there are any 
> transactions in it or if its referenced anywhere else, like in a schedule.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Brendan Coupe
> > > brendan at coupeware.com <mailto:brendan at coupeware.com>
> > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:44 PM Aaron Mehl <mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi all,I want to delete an account. I see that in the Account menu 
> the is a delete item. The delete item is grayed out, so I started to 
> fish to see where and how it works. I tried right clicking the account 
> name in the Home view pane, but there was no context menu. I when into 
> the Accounts view pane, I highlighted an account and went into the 
> Account menu and delete was still grayed out. I next tried to right 
> mouse click on the account name and delete account was grayed out.
> > > So, when, can I delete an account and how do I do it? This should 
> be a task that is self explanatory as far as I can see, but I am 
> mightily confused.Help,Aaron
> >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Thomas Baumgart
> >
> > https://www.signal.org/ <https://www.signal.org/ >      Signal, the 
> better WhatsApp
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
> > Life would be so much easier if we could just
> > look at the source code. -- Dave Olson
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------

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