<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<font face="Verdana">Hi Aaron,<br>
<br>
As I have history in authoring technical documentation, I share
your position and sentiment. Writing good documentation for end
users is a daunting task. Even if I'm generally very happy and
content with KMM, you are raising valid points. FWIW.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Koos<br>
<br>
</font><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 13-12-2020 18:27, Aaron Mehl wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:151707302.200549.1607880426758@mail.yahoo.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="ydp420b4c41yahoo-style-wrap"
style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:16px;">
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Hi again, thanks for the
response.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I am actually not just a
user, but I work in Technical Communications.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">What I was writing was based
on my experience and industry standards.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I am actually trying to
understand how the program works. I am writing procedures for
accounts and hope it will grow into a users manual in addition
to the current Handbook which is more descriptive.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I can't, ultimately change
they way KMyMoney works. But I can point out, that given
enough time we all can learn to use any program, whether or
not certain aspects of it are confusing. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">That said, when you wrote "it
may have been a little confusing at first", I think you hit
the nail on the head. For a new user it is a bit confusing.
Like I noted using the K.i.s.s. method and striving for
consistency gives users clues of how to use the program. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">In Technical Communications,
we don't use the passive voice. This also means avoiding
"would", "could", and "should". Good writing uses clear,
short, and to the point directions. If they need to add and
account, which it seems they do, then write: To create an
account do [this]. To create an institution do [this]. The
interface needs to give the normal and common situation.
Exceptions to that rule can be dealt with later. Maybe I don't
understand. A checking account is housed in a Bank. So the
normal action is to have an institution and an account in it. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I do see situations where an
institution isn't needed, such as an EBT card. (food
assistance money). But in the wizard it feels like I must add
an account, even though I can just click next. </div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Still having menu items that
don't do anything is confusing. Whether it has been done that
way before or not.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">This is already more than
enough for one email.</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Thanks for your time,</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Aaron</div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id="yahoo_quoted_8417511050" class="yahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial,
sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div> On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 11:25:37 AM EST, Brendan
Coupe <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:brendan@coupeware.com"><brendan@coupeware.com></a> wrote: </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Just to be clear, you are "A" user, not the
only user. I am also "A"<br clear="none">
user and I disagree with most of what you complained
about. I've been<br clear="none">
a user for 15+ years so I may be more used to the UI
issues. KMM<br clear="none">
definitely has some rough spots (investments need work,
matching OFX<br clear="none">
imports with no limit on time frame is a huge problem for
me).<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
You can delete an account, but only if it has no
transactions in it.<br clear="none">
Did you read the link that Thomas sent you?<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Do you realize what happens if you delete an account and
all of the<br clear="none">
transactions in it? It would delete the transactions from
all other<br clear="none">
accounts that have transfers and from assigned categories.
Not<br clear="none">
something I want to do do if that account was used for
real<br clear="none">
transactions. The balance on any account that had a
transfer with it<br clear="none">
would be off.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
As far as the UI debate goes, I think it's settled. I
looked in my<br clear="none">
Firefox and LibreOffice menus and there are grayed out /
disabled<br clear="none">
options in both. I think getting rid of options rather
than disabling<br clear="none">
them is a terrible idea. Maybe you want them to remain
active but<br clear="none">
instead of working, they popup a dialog box explaining why
they are<br clear="none">
disabled. I think it's very obvious when it comes to
deleting accounts<br clear="none">
but it wouldn't hurt to give the user more info. I ran
into this when<br clear="none">
trying to close investment accounts and I had to close all
of the<br clear="none">
stocks in it first. Took me a few minutes to remember
that.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
When I'm done with an account, I simply close the account.
That does<br clear="none">
not affect any accounts that have transfers with the
closed account<br clear="none">
and it allows me to reopen it if I need to change anything
linked to<br clear="none">
it.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
As far as institutions go, it may have been a little
confusing at<br clear="none">
first, but I like the way it is. Generally my banks are
grouped by<br clear="none">
institution and other things that are mostly one of a kind
(Gift<br clear="none">
Cards, Cash) are not assigned to an institution. I would
not miss<br clear="none">
institutions if they were gone but I fail to see how it's
confusing.<br clear="none">
Maybe an option in the KMM settings to turn off
institutions would<br clear="none">
help. Maybe a "Skip" button in the dialog you referenced
would make<br clear="none">
more sense even though the "Next" button does the same
thing if you<br clear="none">
leave everything blank.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
If you have a problem with the wording in various dialog
boxes or in<br clear="none">
other parts of the program, I suggest you submit a
wishlist item via<br clear="none">
the bug tracker. You should be as specific as possible and
if the<br clear="none">
developers agree, changes like this can happen very
quickly. This<br clear="none">
means explaining why you think it's confusing and your
suggestion on<br clear="none">
how it should be changed.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
In your institution complaint, maybe changing the wording
to "If you<br clear="none">
would like to assign this account to an institution...
Otherwise,<br clear="none">
just click "Next"."<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Maybe a separate wishlist item to disable institutions in
the KMM settings.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
If you want KMM to change for the better, I suggest lots
of details on<br clear="none">
one issue at a time as wishlist items that can be tracked
and assigned<br clear="none">
to a developer. They are very open to user suggestions.<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
----<br clear="none">
Brendan Coupe<br clear="none">
<div class="yqt7169773319" id="yqtfd41691"><br
clear="none">
On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:10 AM Aaron Mehl <<a
shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Hi,<br clear="none">
> I am not so sure that its a UI debate. I am asking
about a function. The fact that it is in the interface
is secondary. I as a user open an account at a bank. I
decide to close that account. I decide to switch banks.
I as a user might want to keep the records of that
closed account or I might want to remove every trace of
it. I as a user might want to not use a part of the
interface, it is my choice.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Now once the program lets me do what I need to do
we can talk about the UI issue. There is a rule call
K.I.S.S. which says that the UI should be simple and
intuitive. If a user has to hunt around to find
something on an interface the user gets frustrated and
looks for another program. The UI debate you are talking
about is from the developers side. This I guess
presupposes that the user is a developer....<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Overall KMyMoney works well. But the interface is
full of fluff. Fluff is when the interface is jam packed
with too many ways to do the same thing and then no ways
to do others among other issues. The issue of
consistency of how menus and dialog boxes work where
parallel functions do different things. Users expect
that clicking on New Institution and New Account will
give me the same result.<br clear="none">
> Other Issues are the text on the dialog boxes and
wizards. These need to me clear and concise and
consistent as well. For example I open the New Account
wizard and the first thing I see is new institution. I
included a screen capture of the text. It starts with
the word 'If'. If means a few things. A bank account can
exist without a bank? If implies that an institution is
optional or maybe not important. This would confuse a
user. It won't confuse a developer since he built the
program.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Can I close/delete an account in KMyMoney? If so,
how. If not why? If there is a good reason why I can't
delete an account, then it shouldn't be in the UI to
confuse the user, never-mind the UI debate. The program
should I hope put the user first.<br clear="none">
> Thank you for answering me.<br clear="none">
> Aaron<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 02:11:45 AM EST,
Thomas Baumgart <<a shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:thb@net-bembel.de"
href="mailto:thb@net-bembel.de" moz-do-not-send="true">thb@net-bembel.de</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Aaron,<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> On Sonntag, 13. Dezember 2020 02:01:49 CET Aaron
Mehl wrote:<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> > hmn, if this is true, then why is it in the
menu?Aaron<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> That is a UI debate and there is the other party
that argues to always keep the options in the menus and
disable them so that the user sees they exist but cannot
use them.<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Anyway, the prohibited deletion of accounts is by
design and documented in <a shape="rect"
href="https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/extragear-office/kmymoney/details.accounts.delete.html"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/extragear-office/kmymoney/details.accounts.delete.html</a><br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> > On Saturday, December 12, 2020, 07:28:35 PM
EST, Brendan Coupe <<a shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:brendan@coupeware.com"
href="mailto:brendan@coupeware.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">brendan@coupeware.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > I don't think you can delete an account if
there are any transactions in it or if its referenced
anywhere else, like in a schedule.<br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > ---<br clear="none">
> > Brendan Coupe<br clear="none">
> > <a shape="rect"
ymailto="mailto:brendan@coupeware.com"
href="mailto:brendan@coupeware.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">brendan@coupeware.com</a><br
clear="none">
> > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:44 PM Aaron Mehl <<a
shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com"
href="mailto:mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">mehlzaidy770@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:<br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> > Hi all,I want to delete an account. I see that
in the Account menu the is a delete item. The delete
item is grayed out, so I started to fish to see where
and how it works. I tried right clicking the account
name in the Home view pane, but there was no context
menu. I when into the Accounts view pane, I highlighted
an account and went into the Account menu and delete was
still grayed out. I next tried to right mouse click on
the account name and delete account was grayed out.<br
clear="none">
> > So, when, can I delete an account and how do I
do it? This should be a task that is self explanatory as
far as I can see, but I am mightily confused.Help,Aaron<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
> ><br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> --<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Regards<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Thomas Baumgart<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> <a shape="rect" href="https://www.signal.org/ "
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.signal.org/
</a> Signal, the better WhatsApp<br clear="none">
>
-------------------------------------------------------------<br
clear="none">
> Life would be so much easier if we could just<br
clear="none">
> look at the source code. -- Dave Olson<br
clear="none">
><br clear="none">
>
-------------------------------------------------------------</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>