delete or not to delete that is the question

Tue Dec 15 15:17:26 GMT 2020

 Thanks,But my other questions still are unanswered.I am not trying to fix or change anything I just want to document accounts. I see grayed out menu items and I want to tell the user why and if they need that function where to look!Thanks again,Aaron
    On Tuesday, December 15, 2020, 03:48:15 AM EST, Koos Pol <kmymoney2 at pohw.nl> wrote:  

  Hi Aaron,

 As I have history in authoring technical documentation, I share your position and sentiment. Writing good documentation for end users is a daunting task. Even if I'm generally very happy and content with KMM, you are raising valid points. FWIW.

 Cheers,
 Koos

 On 13-12-2020 18:27, Aaron Mehl wrote:

 Hi again, thanks for the response. I am actually not just a user, but I work in Technical Communications. What I was writing was based on my experience and industry standards. I am actually trying to understand how the program works.  I am writing procedures for accounts and hope it will grow into a users manual in addition to the current Handbook which is more descriptive. I can't, ultimately change they way KMyMoney works. But I can point out, that given enough time we all can learn to use any program, whether or not certain aspects of it are confusing.   That said, when you wrote "it may have been a little confusing at first", I think you hit the nail on the head. For a new user it is a bit confusing. Like I noted using the K.i.s.s. method and striving for consistency gives users clues of how to use the program.  
  In Technical Communications, we don't use the passive voice. This also means avoiding "would", "could", and "should". Good writing uses clear, short, and to the point directions. If they need to add and account, which it seems they do, then write: To create an account do [this]. To create an institution do [this]. The interface needs to give the normal and common situation. Exceptions to that rule can be dealt with later. Maybe I don't understand. A checking account is housed in a Bank. So the normal action is to have an institution and an account in it.  
  I do see situations where an institution isn't needed, such as an EBT card. (food assistance money). But in the wizard it feels like I must add an account, even though I can just click next.  Still having menu items that don't do anything is confusing. Whether it has been done that way before or not. 
  This is already more than enough for one email. Thanks for your time, Aaron     
      On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 11:25:37 AM EST, Brendan Coupe <brendan at coupeware.com> wrote:  

   Just to be clear, you are "A" user, not the only user. I am also "A"
 user and I disagree with most of what you complained about. I've been
 a user for 15+ years so I may be more used to the UI issues. KMM
 definitely has some rough spots (investments need work, matching OFX
 imports with no limit on time frame is a huge problem for me).

 You can delete an account, but only if it has no transactions in it.
 Did you read the link that Thomas sent you?

 Do you realize what happens if you delete an account and all of the
 transactions in it? It would delete the transactions from all other
 accounts that have transfers and from assigned categories. Not
 something I want to do do if that account was used for real
 transactions. The balance on any account that had a transfer with it
 would be off.

 As far as the UI debate goes, I think it's settled. I looked in my
 Firefox and LibreOffice menus and there are grayed out / disabled
 options in both. I think getting rid of options rather than disabling
 them is a terrible idea. Maybe you want them to remain active but
 instead of working, they popup a dialog box explaining why they are
 disabled. I think it's very obvious when it comes to deleting accounts
 but it wouldn't hurt to give the user more info. I ran into this when
 trying to close investment accounts and I had to close all of the
 stocks in it first. Took me a few minutes to remember that.

 When I'm done with an account, I simply close the account. That does
 not affect any accounts that have transfers with the closed account
 and it allows me to reopen it if I need to change anything linked to
 it.

 As far as institutions go, it may have been a little confusing at
 first, but I like the way it is. Generally my banks are grouped by
 institution and other things that are mostly one of a kind (Gift
 Cards, Cash) are not assigned to an institution. I would not miss
 institutions if they were gone but I fail to see how it's confusing.
 Maybe an option in the KMM settings to turn off institutions would
 help. Maybe a "Skip" button in the dialog you referenced would make
 more sense even though the "Next" button does the same thing if you
 leave everything blank.

 If you have a problem with the wording in various dialog boxes or in
 other parts of the program, I suggest you submit a wishlist item via
 the bug tracker. You should be as specific as possible and if the
 developers agree, changes like this can happen very quickly. This
 means explaining why you think it's confusing and your suggestion on
 how it should be changed.

 In your institution complaint, maybe changing the wording to "If you
 would like to assign this account to an institution...  Otherwise,
 just click "Next"."

 Maybe a separate wishlist item to disable institutions in the KMM settings.

 If you want KMM to change for the better, I suggest lots of details on
 one issue at a time as wishlist items that can be tracked and assigned
 to a developer. They are very open to user suggestions.

 ----
 Brendan Coupe

 On Sun, Dec 13, 2020 at 6:10 AM Aaron Mehl <mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com> wrote:
 >
 > Hi,
 > I am not so sure that its a UI debate. I am asking about a function. The fact that it is in the interface is secondary. I as a user open an account at a bank. I decide to close that account. I decide to switch banks. I as a user might want to keep the records of that closed account or I might want to remove every trace of it. I as a user might want to not use a part of the interface, it is my choice.
 >
 > Now once the program lets me do what I need to do we can talk about the UI issue. There is a rule call K.I.S.S. which says that the UI should be simple and intuitive. If a user has to hunt around to find something on an interface the user gets frustrated and looks for another program. The UI debate you are talking about is from the developers side. This I guess presupposes that the user is a developer....
 >
 > Overall KMyMoney works well. But the interface is full of fluff. Fluff is when the interface is jam packed with too many ways to do the same thing and then no ways to do others among other issues. The issue of consistency of how menus and dialog boxes work where parallel functions do different things. Users expect that clicking on New Institution and New Account will give me the same result.
 > Other Issues are the text on the dialog boxes and wizards. These need to me clear and concise and consistent as well. For example I open the New Account wizard and the first thing I see is new institution. I included a screen capture of the text. It starts with the word 'If'. If means a few things. A bank account can exist without a bank? If implies that an institution is optional or maybe not important. This would confuse a user. It won't confuse a developer since he built the program.
 >
 > Can I close/delete an account in KMyMoney? If so, how. If not why? If there is a good reason why I can't delete an account, then it shouldn't be in the UI to confuse the user, never-mind the UI debate. The program should I hope put the user first.
 > Thank you for answering me.
 > Aaron
 >
 > On Sunday, December 13, 2020, 02:11:45 AM EST, Thomas Baumgart <thb at net-bembel.de> wrote:
 >
 >
 > Aaron,
 >
 >
 > On Sonntag, 13. Dezember 2020 02:01:49 CET Aaron Mehl wrote:
 >
 > >  hmn, if this is true, then why is it in the menu?Aaron
 >
 > That is a UI debate and there is the other party that argues to always keep the options in the menus and disable them so that the user sees they exist but cannot use them.
 >
 > Anyway, the prohibited deletion of accounts is by design and documented in https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/extragear-office/kmymoney/details.accounts.delete.html
 >
 >
 > >    On Saturday, December 12, 2020, 07:28:35 PM EST, Brendan Coupe <brendan at coupeware.com> wrote:
 > >
 > >  I don't think you can delete an account if there are any transactions in it or if its referenced anywhere else, like in a schedule.
 > >
 > > ---
 > > Brendan Coupe
 > > brendan at coupeware.com
 > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 4:44 PM Aaron Mehl <mehlzaidy770 at yahoo.com> wrote:
 > >
 > > Hi all,I want to delete an account. I see that in the Account menu the is a delete item. The delete item is grayed out, so I started to fish to see where and how it works. I tried right clicking the account name in the Home view pane, but there was no context menu. I when into the Accounts view pane, I highlighted an account and went into the Account menu and delete was still grayed out. I next tried to right mouse click on the account name and delete account was grayed out.
 > > So, when, can I delete an account and how do I do it? This should be a task that is self explanatory as far as I can see, but I am mightily confused.Help,Aaron
 >
 > >
 > >
 >
 > --
 >
 > Regards
 >
 > Thomas Baumgart
 >
 > https://www.signal.org/       Signal, the better WhatsApp
 > -------------------------------------------------------------
 > Life would be so much easier if we could just
 > look at the source code. -- Dave Olson
 >
 > -------------------------------------------------------------     

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