A usable plasma desktop

[Chani]

On December 14, 2008 22:16:06 Steven wrote:
> I'm sorry. I wasn't clear. The file structure I'm proposing would be
> completely abstract, and not really based on folders. Aaron's kind and
> concise suggestion that nepomuk is a better candidate seems like a 
better
> idea.
>
> However, there still is the problem that many applications put 
downloads in
> the Desktop folder by default. Aaron's and my own focus on the file 
system
> part has distracted from the main purpose, which is to solve 
compatibility
> issues with other DE's and other software. Somehow, plasma needs to 
prevent
> programs from dropping downloads there, as plasma doesn't use it for 
that,
> so people end up losing their downloads. Until other programs stop 
doing
> this, I think perhaps that somehow automatically moving them to the
> downloads folder, which could then optionally be shown on the destop 
as a
> folder view might solve this. I'm not sure how it would be implemented.

like I said, talk to the distros. get them to change the default folder for 
those programs (what is there, other than firefox?) to something like 
"downloads", and ship a default plasma config that shows that folder 
somehow.
plasma isn't responsible for where other random programs decide to put 
files, and it shouldn't be. that's way out of our scope, and would lead to 
horrible pain.

>
> The other compatibility problem that I see is that, currently, the only 
way
> for Plasma to display what is on, for example, a Nautilus desktop is to
> have a folder view showing this. And a nautilus desktop can't show the
> files or launchers on a plasma desktop because plasma rightly replaces 
the
> desktop folder metaphor with one allowing the management of not only 
files,
> but contacts, RSS feeds, time, devices, and anything else you can think 
of,
> as relevant to you're current activity. These two concepts are 
completely
> different, but they overlap in parts, and its in this overlap that I think
> there needs to be more compatibility in order to aid migration. Aaron
> obviously scoffs at my suggestion.

I don't think there needs to be more compatibility here; I think a 
folderview is enough. the user can see the stuff that was on their old 
desktop, and decide what they want to do with it now. where they go from 
there is up to their imagination :)

>
> It is from these two ideas that the rest grew. I should have put more
> emphasis on them, because all this flaming about a possible way of 
using
> the Desktop folder with plasma without compromising plasma itself 
could
> have been avoided.
this? flaming? ahahaha. we've had to put up with a lot more... but yes, 
time could have been saved

>
> As for a shortcuts plasmoid, this is exactly what I don't want, because its
> no better than the desktop-as-a-folder metaphor. I thought that maybe 
the
> folder view could be extended to show files grouped more abstractly 
than by
> folder, being as they already do this within a folder with filtering.

yep, sounds like nepomuk is what you want.

> Setting up filters is a real pain, and I was simply suggesting a way to
> avoid it altogether. If you think it would be better as its own plasmoid,
> then maybe it should be. That is why I haven't gone into the trunk, 
changed
> everything as I saw fit, and then tried to commit it :P This might be
> better handled with a nepomuk plasmoid. I'm not sure how it would 
work in
> this case, but nepomuk does seem to offer the features needed to 
create
> this. This is not the point of what I'm saying, though.
>
> And saying this list isn't for users is like saying cars aren't for
> drivers. 

no it isn't. this list is not a plasma binary.

> This list is for people wanting to contribute to plasma. In open
> source software, the developers are the users, and the users can be the
> developers. You have to start somewhere. The first step is to join the
> discussion. First, to join the user forums, but it you really want to
> contribute, you have to get in on the dev list. The whole development 
model
> is that a driver can walk into the room for engineering cars and, first
> make some
> suggestions, and then maybe start building and modifying parts 
themselves.
> That's what it means to be a community project. People tend to forget 
that.

if you want to become a developer, I'd suggest you not come into a 
project waving "usability" about (it's a horribly overused word lately) and 
suggesting things that go against the design of our project. you didn't 
sound like someone who wanted to become a developer, you sounded 
more like someone who wanted to impose his views of our project onto us 
and get us to do all the work. we get a fair number of people like that and 
we don't have time for them.

I suppose there was a time when many users became developers, but 
sadly these days a lot of users are... well, consumers. they don't seem 
interested in contributing, but they are interested in telling developers 
what to do (not suggesting, not describing problems, but telling and not 
even taking no for an answer), and we don't have TIME to spend all day 
listening to them or explaining for the tenth time why they're still wrong.

that's why this list is meant for developers, not users. perhaps 
"contributors" is a better word than "developers", meaning people who do 
something beneficial for the project and aren't mere consumers.

I suppose there'll occasionally be users with suggestions that are useful 
(and not obvious and not on our feature plan), though. I wonder where 
those belong... bugs.kde.org doesn't seem to quite fit, and way too many 
people there respond badly when they don't get their way... and really 
patches are more welcome than words, because there's so much to do...

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