[Nepomuk] Re: nepomuk & gnome & firefox

Bruce Adams tortoise_74 at yahoo.co.uk
Mon Nov 22 12:55:08 CET 2010


The question still seems sensible to me.


I think you need multiple interfaces. Somewhere a "run SPARQL query" interface
is required but I think its useful to have specific interfaces for common 
activities.

On the web folksonomies have proved to be, if not killer apps, at least very 
important.
I am speculating that they will be at least as important on the desktop. Hence 
my 

suggestion of a direct interface. I may be off the mark on this.
The ontologies I've seen so far are far more structured. What do people think?

Regards,

Bruce.

PS It is my understanding that there was a fork of the ontologies between 
nepomuk
and gnome though I don't know how severe it is.



----- Original Message ----
> From: Adrien Bustany <madcat at mymadcat.com>
> To: Adrien Bustany <madcat at mymadcat.com>
> Cc: Bruce Adams <tortoise_74 at yahoo.co.uk>; nepomuk at kde.org
> Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 7:11:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [Nepomuk] Re: nepomuk & gnome & firefox
> 
> Uuuh sorry for the useless post, I got lost in this discussion broken
> across  several threads...
> 
> Le Sat, 20 Nov 2010 21:09:13 +0200,
> Adrien Bustany  <madcat at mymadcat.com> a écrit  :
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > on GNOME the standard semantic engine is  called Tracker
> > (tracker-project.org). It also uses the  Nepomuk ontologies, so it
> > should be easy to make things work the same in  GNOME and KDE. Having a
> > common interface surely sounds like a good idea.  The question is now
> > if we want a high level interface (ie. "add a tag")  or a low level one
> > ("run sparql query")...
> > 
> >  Cheers
> > 
> > Adrien
> > 
> > Le Sat, 20 Nov 2010 02:06:51  +0000 (GMT),
> > Bruce Adams <tortoise_74 at yahoo.co.uk> a écrit  :
> > 
> > > 
> > > Hi,
> > >   If I may ask what  is the other project? As it will obvious have
> > > bearings on  where
> > > you want to focus your efforts.
> > > 
> > >  Brainstorming sounds like a good plan. Perhaps starting with a wide
> > >  scope before narrowing down to what is in and out of scope 
> > > and  ultimately keeping it simple and acheivable.
> > > 
> > > I'm new  so apologies that this probably isn't.
> > > 
> > > I'd like to  start with resource discovery.
> > > Given a URI we need to know.
> >  >    what services provide meta data for it
> > >     what kind of meta data each service provides  (reference to  an
> > > ontology?)
> > > 
> > > Given a mounted disk  semantic information could be provided by one
> > > or more of at least  the following:
> > >    a (e.g. nepomuk) server using a user  specific database
> > >    a local server using a shared  database
> > >    a remove server using a shared  database
> > >    a filesystem that permits embedded semantic  information.  
> > > 
> > > Ideally I'd like to be able to  do the same for a web-page which is
> > > why I said URI
> > >  rather than file. Including web-pages would most likely imply using
> > >  W3 standard methods for passing semantic information around.
> > > 
> > > I'm not clear if or how nepomuk handles security issues relating  to
> > > users sharing
> > > a database and controlling access and  visibility of it.
> > > 
> > > For each resource we need to know  what priviledges we have. 
> > > Most importantly is it read  only.
> > > 
> > > I'm primarily interested in tagging  folksonomies.
> > > I'm sufficiently new that I don't know how  (in)compatible the
> > > ontologies used by nepomuk are with those used  elsewhere (OSCAF and
> > > Gnome).
> > > 
> > > The paper  http://tagont.googlecode.com/files/TagOntPaper.pdf
> > > suggests a  common ontology.
> > > It includes the following suggested queries which  look a lot like
> > > some of my tagging use cases.
> > > 
> >  > • get all taggers
> > > • get all tags used by a tagger X
> >  > • get all resources which have been tagged more
> > > than  once
> > > • get all tags for a resource A
> > > • get tags from  users X,Y,Z for resource A
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Myself I  would very much like an API that just provides this without
> > > having  to writes SPARQL
> > > queries as that lowers the entry requirements for  using it.
> > > 
> > > Some more vague ramblings in the direction  of a (C++) API before I
> > > head off to sleep.
> > > I had  something like this in mind for a libtagger.so which it what
> > > started  me searching for information
> > > and led me to nepomuk.
> > > 
> > >    Entity -> File or URL
> > >     Service - description of a meta data provider
> > >     Tag       - includes a simple string name
> > > 
> >  >    std::set<Service> Entity::listServiceProviders()
> >  > 
> > >    std::set< Tag> Entity::listTags()
> >  >    std::set< Tag> Entity::listTags(<semantic info  provider or list
> > > there>) std::set< Tag>  Entity::listTags(<some kind of filter>)
> > > 
> > >     <some kind of status, or just exceptions when it goes wrong> 
> > > Entity::addTag(tag)
> > > 
> > > methods to convert  a tag to and from a string
> > > simply Tag::Tag(std::string) -  
> > >    std::string Tag::toString() 
> > > 
> >  > perhaps this is only sensible in the context of a given service
> >  > provider?
> > > 
> > >    Service::listDefinedTags();
> > > 
> > >    Entity::addTag(service, tag,  bool createTag)
> > > 
> > > I  have to say some of this bears a resemblance to the existing
> > >  nepomuk API but simplified with not an ontology in sight (though its
> >  > there under the hood).
> > > 
> > > Meta-data aware file  ops.
> > > 
> > >   CopyFile   - copy file &  meta-data
> > >   MoveFile  -  move file &  meta-data
> > > 
> > > The following would apply to URLs as  well:
> > > 
> > >   CopyMetaData( file1, file2) - overwrite  the meta data for file2
> > > with that for file1
> > >    CopyMetaData( file, provider1, provider2) - copy the meta data one
> > >  provide has for a file to another provider
> > >    ExportMetaData(file);  - to file or a (opaque?) meta data object
> >  >   ImportMetaData(file);
> > > 
> > > These would need to  be clever enough to decide what to do based on
> > > the resource  providers for the start and end points.
> > > 
> > > I was  thinking about cobbling this kind of API together for my next
> > >  project.
> > > 
> > > I also wonder about having a backup  file-system based metadata
> > > database along the lines of
> >  >  
> > > <dir>
> > >    <file to  tag>  
> > >    ,metadata/
> > >         tags/
> > >              <file to tag>   <- contains tags as RDF, XML or a list
> >  > of strings one per line.
> > > 
> > > Regards,
> > > 
> > > Bruce.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original  Message ----
> > > > From: Sebastian Trüg <trueg at kde.org>
> > > > To: Bruce  Adams <tortoise_74 at yahoo.co.uk>
> >  > > Cc: nepomuk at kde.org
> > > > Sent: Wed,  November 17, 2010 2:18:30 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Nepomuk] Re:  nepomuk & gnome & firefox
> > > > 
> > > > Actually  I have planned to start on that API mid of next week
> > > > since I  need it  for another project. Maybe a good idea to start
> > > >  would be to brainstorm on the  necessary method the API would
> > >  > require, ie. come up with a bunch of use  cases.
> > > > 
> > > > We could put that on techbase.kde.org...
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Sebastian
> > > > 
> > > > On  11/17/2010 02:24 PM, Bruce Adams wrote:
> > >  > > 
> > > > > That's pretty much  exactly what I'm  looking for.
> > > > > So I'm happy to collaborate on any  efforts  to get something
> > > > > like that 
> > >  going.
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > >  Regards,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Bruce.
> > > >  > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ----- Original  Message  ----
> > > > >> From: Sebastian Trüg <trueg at kde.org>
> > > > >> To: nepomuk at kde.org
> > > > >>  Sent: Wed,  November 17, 2010 1:04:19 PM
> > > > >>  Subject: [Nepomuk] Re: nepomuk &  gnome & firefox
> > > >  >>
> > > > >> This is what I mean: a DBUs API that   provides what the
> > > > >> Nepomuk-KDE  API provides at  the  moment.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>  Cheers,
> > > > >>  Sebastian
> > > >  >>
> > > > >> On 11/17/2010  09:58 AM, Bruce  Adams  wrote:
> > > > >>> ----- Original Message   ----
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> From:  Richard Dale <richard.j.dale at gmail.com>
> >  > > >>>>   To: nepomuk at kde.org
> > > >  >>>> Sent:  Tue,  November 16, 2010 5:40:17 PM
> >  > > >>>> Subject: [Nepomuk]  Re: nepomuk &   gnome &  firefox
> > > > >>>>
> > > >  >>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 7:11  AM,  Sebastian  Trüg
> > > > >>>> <trueg at kde.org>  
> > >  wrote:
> > > > >>>>>  The solution is simply what  I said: we  support the tracker
> > > > >>>>>  API   and that's it. The other  way around is not possible
> >  > > >>>>> anyway.
> > > > >>>> OK,  how  would  you like to support the tracker API? I'm
> > > >  >>>> still not  
> > > clear
> > > >  >>>> on what you  are   saying.
> > > >  >>>>
> > > > >>>> One way would be to write  a  Tracker backend for  Soprano 2.x
> > > > >>>>  which would  support a subset of the Virtuoso  backend's
> > >  > >>>> functionality.
> > > > >>>>
> >  > > >>>> Another way would be  to  write a QSparql  based backend for
> > > > >>>> Soprano 2.x which  would  interface with Tracker, and also
> > > > >>>>  support SPARQL   endpoints and  Virtuoso as a side effect,
> >  > > >>>> although you  would be perfectly  
> >  > welcome
> > > > >>>> not to use that extra   functionality as the drivers are only
> > > > >>>>  plugins.  I happen to be an expert on the Tracker apis (both
> > >  > >>>> the DBus one and   the newer 'direct api'), and the  Tracker
> > > > >>>> team  are  cooperating  to  improve their api WRT its use in
> > > > >>>>  QSparql. I  am also an active KDE  developer who  has
> >  > > >>>> developed language  bindings for Soprano and  Nepomuk, and I
> > > > >>>> am quite happy to work   on KDE things in my spare time.  So
> > > > >>>> if  anyone can do  this  particular task I feel  I should be
> >  > > >>>> about the person person  to try.
> > >  > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I don't know what your  plans for  Soprano 3.x are as  I
> > > > >>>>  haven't  studied the code  yet.
> > > >  >>>>
> > > > >>>>  --    Richard
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> >  > > >>> From my angle as a noob  a lot of this  is  missing the point.
> > > > >>> I want to read and  write  tag clouds in a platform
> > > > >>> independent way. A  rich  ontology is all very well (and
> > > > >>> vitally  important for more advanced 
> > > >
> > > > >>  uses).
> > > > >>> But at the start of the day I want to  be  able  to do
> > > > >>> something like:
> >  > > >>>
> > > > >>>  Nepomuk::File   file(  "some/path");
> > > > >>>   file.addTag("foo");
> > > > >>>
> > > >  >>> Just like in the   examples here:
> > > >  >>>
> > > > >>>    
>http://api.kde.org/4.x-api/kdelibs-apidocs/nepomuk/html/examples.html
> >  > > >>>
> > > > >>>  and see the tag  "foo" appear in the "quickview" in dolphin
> > > > >>> and  the equivalent Gnome apps (and  firefox).
> > > >  >>>
> > > > >>> Surprisingly this is   'bleeding  edge' stuff (kde 4.6) rather
> > > > >>> than  the bare 
> > > >
> > > > >>>   essentials
> > > > >>>  and doesn't work on my up to  date ubuntu 10.10  installation
> > > > >>> which is 
> > > >still 
> > > >
> > > > >> on 
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> kde   4.5.1.
> > > > >>> (actually this is beyond the bleeding edge  as the   tag needs
> > > > >>> to be 
> > >  >declared 
> > > >
> > > > >>> first, but you  get the  idea)
> > > > >>>
> > > >  >>>   Regards,
> > > > >>>
> > > >  >>>  Bruce.
> > > > >>>
> > > >  >>>
> > > > >>>      
> > >  > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >  > >>>  Nepomuk mailing  list
> > > >  >>> Nepomuk at kde.org
> > > > >>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/nepomuk
> > > >  >>>
> > > > >>   _______________________________________________
> > > > >>  Nepomuk  mailing  list
> > > > >> Nepomuk at kde.org
> > > > >> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/nepomuk
> > > >  >>
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > >  >      
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> >  > 
> > > 
> > >      
> > >  _______________________________________________
> > > Nepomuk mailing  list
> > > Nepomuk at kde.org
> > > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/nepomuk
> > 
> >  _______________________________________________
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> > Nepomuk at kde.org
> > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/nepomuk
> 
> 


      


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