Necessitas-devel Digest, Vol 11, Issue 6

[Enrico Miglino]

Dan, I have already had direct experience with you, with the project and
with the - very few things - I have done for it. I totally agree with your
comments. And I think - personal point of view too - that you are also too
kind with all ... :)

Cheers, Enrico.

On 16 March 2012 11:59, <necessitas-devel-request at kde.org> wrote:

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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project (BogDan)
>   2. Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project (Koying)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: BogDan <bog_dan_ro at yahoo.com>
> To: Koying <cbro at semperpax.com>, "necessitas-devel at kde.org" <
> necessitas-devel at kde.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project
> Hi,
>
> >  WARNING! This post is a rant, expresses only my own opinion and
> feelings
> > might be harmed during the course of this reading.
>
> > *<RANT>*
>
> > This post is a reaction to a thread on the dev list where Bogdan was
> > lamenting on the lack of commitment to the project.
> > I found it both laughable and pathetic in the sense that NOTHING is done
> to
> > make it a project you can be committed to, and I'll expose, IMHO, why.
>
> Until now I find your remarks very insulting ...
>
> > 1) *This is a one man (and a half, sorry Ray), "benevolent despot" kind
> of
> > project.*
>
> I'm not going to accept you to insult Ray ! Ray's contribution is not
> half !
> Because Ray dedicate his free time to this project, now 4000+ users
> can use this
> project on windows and mac ! What have you done for this project ?
>
> > Bogdan IS the project. Every single decision is made by him without
> > discussions nor appeal. He has his vision for the project (that I didn't
> > find, but it could be hidden in one of the zillions places the project
> is
> > scattered into. More on this later) and I don't feel like he is open to
> > discuss/challenge this vision.
>
> I'm confused ! First you say that "He has his vision for the project
> that I didn't
> find .. "  then you say  "I don't feel like he is open to discuss/
> challenge this vision." !
> If you don't know my vision, how can you say that I'm not open to
> discuss it,
> did we ever discuss it ?
>
> Anyway, my expectations for this project are here:
> http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas
>
> We (you and me) had a few discussions before, but I don't remember I
> have been that close...
> We talk about menus and about look&feel plugin, I remember that we
> had different approaches on this topic, you wanted add android
> look&feel only to
> your QML, I didn't agreed, because I still want to support class
> widgets.
> It means that I'm not open to discuss? Please give me more hints on
> this matter !
> BTW Android 9patch is more complex than the standard, so, you can't
> use
> QML BorderImage (qDrawBorderPixmap) to draw the images !
>
> > This is human. AFAIK Bogdan created the project and feels he has all
> rights
> > on it (which he has), but that prevents real involvement from others.
> > Fact is, if Bogdan is unavailable, the project just plain stops.
>
> Every community project, is based on meritocracy:
> You code/contribute, then you have the right to make decisions !
>
> > 2) *NOTHING is done to make it a community project.*
>
> > I already ranted about this, but the scattering of the project resources
> is
> > just plain ridiculous, laughable and a HOWTO not to make a coherent
> project.
> > Wiki on sourceforge, 1 mailing list on kde and 1 on google groups, 1 bug
> > tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code, unclear/hidden master
> > repository, unclear contribution process, which leads me to:
>
> If you search this mailing list you'll find all the informations you
> need:
> -  regarding HOWTO and other information: The sf.net pages was written
> by Damine Treg,
> sadly he didn't had time to continue, so I asked may times for peoples
> help !
> Nobody wanted to do it! I can't do everything by myself !
> - 1 on google groups - this is a high traffic general mailing list
> used by everybody.
> - 1 mailing list on kde  - this one is a low traffic mailing  list
> used only by developers, I don't have time to read all posts on
> google.
> - 1 bug tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code -  it was discuss
> many times before, ONLY bug tracker on sourceforge should be used.
> - unclear/hidden master repository: check
> http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories
> - unclear contribution process, as I already said to you before is not
> may fault !
>
> > 3) *What the f... does necessitas has to do with KDE?*
>
> > I only assume Bogdan and Ray are KDE devs and that it is easy for them
> to
> > host necessitas's master git and "contribution process" on KDE, but this
> is
> > VERY wrong from a necessitas perspective. KDE might have its own
> > contribution process but it is irrelevant to us and ridiculous for a
> > necessitas contributor to have to register a kde account to be able to
> use
> > reviewboard, itself, IMHO, a very obscure and complicated system for
> code
> > contribution vs. what is existing in github or gitorious.
> > Obviously, all merge requests in the gitorious clone are ignored.
> > Pretty please, make gitorious the main repository, use gitorious merge
> > request system and do whatever KDE stuff you fancy do in your own KDE
> > corner.
>
> It has everything to do with KDE! Necessitas *IS* a KDE project !
> Again, searching this list will give you enough informations.
> I'll try to summarize: When I released first alpha I had to put
> Ministro libs somewhere,
> I used some free servers to put the libs, but it was not a good
> solution. I dedicated my
> free time to this project and I didn't wanted to give also my money,
> so I had to find
> a reliable solution,  back then Nokia just joined Microsoft, to fight
> against android,
> so, I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice, we share the
> same goal:
> To keep QT free and powerful.
>
> Regarding contributions: We want to upstream everything, the problems
> are:
>  - Nokia doesn't accept contributions without accepting and sign their
> contributors agreement,
>  - I can't move the project to qt-project.org (they don't want it yet
> because is not finished)
>  so you can't accept their agreement, when you publish your patch.
>  - The ONLY solution was to "force" contributors to release their code
> under BSD or public domain.
>
> > 4) *Accept contribution, reject them, discuss them or ask for update,
> DON'T
> > rewrite them*.
>
> > Crying for contribution, then taking some parts of a patch to rewrite it
> > you way, mostly incompatible with the original patch, is NOT the way to
> go
> > to motivate contributors.
>
>   Again I find some of your remarks very insulting, I'm not "crying"
> for contribution !
>   I'm happy to have more contributor, but i'm not crying !
>
>   Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch
> or to
> ask for updates ! e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't
> work at all,
> but I've seen a lot potential, so I decide to make it work [2] !
> I *CREDIT YOU FOR YOUR WORK* and I push a working version, so,
> what was wrong in that ?
>
>   Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last
> patch,
> because it was a fiasco, it made the applications almost unusable, is
> that my fault ?
> Probably it is, because I trust your patch and I didn't run and check
> all the tests before push it !
> The problem is to run and check all the tests it takes too much (1-3
> days).
>
> > 5) *The project is sloooooowwwwww*.
>
> > Due to 1), 2) and Bogdan's limited availability, necessitas is slow to
> > progress in its own right. I kind of made my own necessitas fork to move
> > on, and due to 4) it has diverged so much from the main trunk that I'm
> not
> > sure I'll bother rebasing.
>
> > 6) *Maybe related to 3), I don't know if it is necessitas or KDE, but
> one
> > should definitely learn about the "git rebase" command*.
>
> > All the merges coming from I don't know which branches makes the git
> > repository unreadable. The proper way to merge upstream is to rebase and
> > resolve conflicts. Merging upstream is pure lazyness.
>
> WOW you are so good! We didn't know about "git rebase" command !!!
> Of course you forgot to learn that you can't use "git rebase" command
> when more than one people is using that branch !
> Check http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/ for more info on this topic.
>
> Merging with upstream is NOT lazyness, is responsibility !
>
> > *Bottom line*:
>
> > *Necessitas is NOT a community project*.
>
> > Unless the issues outlined are addressed, It is pointless to whine about
> > necessitas' lack of contribution.
> > I suspect many of the more knowledgeable potential contributors will
> just
> > take the trunk and adapt it to their needs, without bothering trying to
> > contribute it back. Unless the project becomes more community friendly,
> I'm
> > open to contribute to a potential fork.
>
> > *</RANT>*
>
> I'm open to discuss what is wrong with my vision !
> I'm open to know other people vision, so, please share your vision
> with us!
>
> Don't forget that this project is based on meritocracy! Even if you
> have a vision, remember that you must to code it, not only to discuss
> it !
>
> To be clear: I'm open to discuss, but I'm not going to "cry" for
> contributors or to accept contributions with insults in the same
> box !
>
> > Best Regards
> > - Chris -
>
> [1] https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header
> [2]
> https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/androi...
>
> Cheers,
> BogDan.
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Koying <cbro at semperpax.com>
> To: android-qt at googlegroups.com
> Cc: necessitas-devel at kde.org
> Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 03:59:35 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project
> I won't put great length into my final answer, because my point, i.e.
> necessitas NOT being a community project, has not been refuted, nor do I
> see in Bogdan's answer any sign that my points will be addressed in to
> foreseeable future.
>
> Just some specific points:
>
> 1) Insulting
>
>  I didn't insult anybody. I probably hurt feelings but you were
> forewarned. Re Ray, I was referring to his own quote:
>
> "I just handle Mac and Windows builds and our own version of the ndk
> toolchains, I'd like to help out more on the Qt side but I'm basically
> a novice with Qt still, plus, I've fallen behind on ndk work anyway."
>
> 2)  Vision (http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas)
>
> Oh, you mean there is yet ANOTHER place to look for information re
> necessitas? Besides, this a TODO list, not a vision.
> One thing I understand is that Widgets are more important to you than QML,
> even though Qt is deprecating their use on mobile device.
> Your call, but I think this is a waste of time/resource, and I admit I'm
> somewhat frustrated you refuse to integrate the QML components (either
> mine's or Kate's) because it doesn't have the "Android look& feel", which
> seems fallacious to me, especially considering the alpha state of the
> project and that the widgets do not have it either.
>
> 3) KDE; ah, KDE:
>
> "I didn't wanted to give also my money": If you don't want to use one of
> the numerous free solutions for hosting FLOSS projects as to make the
> project coherent, please organize a fund raising. I'm pretty sure you'll
> get the $150 for a yearly hosting plan in a matter of seconds.
>
> "I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice": Why "joining
> somebody"? To host the project? See above. KDE a natural choice? Why?
> Because they're using Qt? In that sense, you could as well have asked QGIS
> to host necessitas. At least they officially support multiplatform.
>
> 4) Patches:
>
> "Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch": Oh
> indeed, it is ALWAYS faster, but it is not how it works in a community
> project.
> "e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't work at all": My point
> exactly. You didn't discuss the supposed fact that it doesn't work with me
> (although it works pretty well for me, thank you).
> "Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last patch,
> because it was a fiasco": Not a bit frustrated about the revert. I KNEW it
> wasn't working as it should. I'm frustrated because I proposed a solution
> (limit to /assets) both on the dev list and on the reviewboard, without ANY
> reaction.
>
> OK, that's about it.
> I'm still not 100% sure Qt on Android is viable as a "commercial"
> alternative but thanks to Bogdan's great work, I was able to port my pet
> Qt/QML apps from Symbian to Android and they work great with some patches.
>
> For what it's worth, my necessitas clone is at
> https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt/koyings-android-lighthouse (Native
> Options Menu + Native Context Menu + "/assets" only + Native Share menu
> soon)
> My Symbian derivated QML Components are at
> https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt-components/android-qt-components (Native
> Options Menu + Native Context Menu + Native Share menu soon)
> Don't forget Kate's Meego-derived components, either (We should really
> merge those...)
>
> Best Regards
> - Chris -
>
>
> On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:01:46 PM UTC+1, BogDan wrote:
>>
>> Hi Chris,
>>
>> On Mar 15, 1:07 pm, Koying <c... at semperpax.com> wrote:
>> >  WARNING! This post is a rant, expresses only my own opinion and
>> feelings
>> > might be harmed during the course of this reading.
>> >
>> > *<RANT>*
>> >
>> > This post is a reaction to a thread on the dev list where Bogdan was
>> > lamenting on the lack of commitment to the project.
>> > I found it both laughable and pathetic in the sense that NOTHING is
>> done to
>> > make it a project you can be committed to, and I'll expose, IMHO, why.
>> >
>>
>> Until now I find your remarks very insulting ...
>>
>> > 1) *This is a one man (and a half, sorry Ray), "benevolent despot" kind
>> of
>> > project.*
>> >
>>
>> I'm not going to accept you to insult Ray ! Ray's contribution is not
>> half !
>> Because Ray dedicate his free time to this project, now 4000+ users
>> can use this
>> project on windows and mac ! What have you done for this project ?
>>
>> >
>> > Bogdan IS the project. Every single decision is made by him without
>> > discussions nor appeal. He has his vision for the project (that I
>> didn't
>> > find, but it could be hidden in one of the zillions places the project
>> is
>> > scattered into. More on this later) and I don't feel like he is open to
>> > discuss/challenge this vision.
>>
>> I'm confused ! First you say that "He has his vision for the project
>> that I didn't
>> find .. "  then you say  "I don't feel like he is open to discuss/
>> challenge this vision." !
>> If you don't know my vision, how can you say that I'm not open to
>> discuss it,
>> did we ever discuss it ?
>>
>> Anyway, my expectations for this project are here:
>> http://community.kde.org/**index.php?title=Necessitas<http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas>
>>
>> We (you and me) had a few discussions before, but I don't remember I
>> have been that close...
>> We talk about menus and about look&feel plugin, I remember that we
>> had different approaches on this topic, you wanted add android
>> look&feel only to
>> your QML, I didn't agreed, because I still want to support class
>> widgets.
>> It means that I'm not open to discuss? Please give me more hints on
>> this matter !
>> BTW Android 9patch is more complex than the standard, so, you can't
>> use
>> QML BorderImage (qDrawBorderPixmap) to draw the images !
>>
>> > This is human. AFAIK Bogdan created the project and feels he has all
>> rights
>> > on it (which he has), but that prevents real involvement from others.
>> > Fact is, if Bogdan is unavailable, the project just plain stops.
>> >
>>
>> Every community project, is based on meritocracy:
>> You code/contribute, then you have the right to make decisions !
>>
>> > 2) *NOTHING is done to make it a community project.*
>> >
>> > I already ranted about this, but the scattering of the project
>> resources is
>> > just plain ridiculous, laughable and a HOWTO not to make a coherent
>> project.
>> > Wiki on sourceforge, 1 mailing list on kde and 1 on google groups, 1
>> bug
>> > tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code, unclear/hidden master
>> > repository, unclear contribution process, which leads me to:
>> >
>>
>> If you search this mailing list you'll find all the informations you
>> need:
>> -  regarding HOWTO and other information: The sf.net pages was written
>> by Damine Treg,
>> sadly he didn't had time to continue, so I asked may times for peoples
>> help !
>> Nobody wanted to do it! I can't do everything by myself !
>> - 1 on google groups - this is a high traffic general mailing list
>> used by everybody.
>> - 1 mailing list on kde  - this one is a low traffic mailing  list
>> used only by developers, I don't have time to read all posts on
>> google.
>> - 1 bug tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code -  it was discuss
>> many times before, ONLY bug tracker on sourceforge should be used.
>> - unclear/hidden master repository: check http://community.kde.org/**
>> Necessitas/Repositories<http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories>
>> - unclear contribution process, as I already said to you before is not
>> may fault !
>>
>>
>> > 3) *What the f... does necessitas has to do with KDE?*
>> >
>> > I only assume Bogdan and Ray are KDE devs and that it is easy for them
>> to
>> > host necessitas's master git and "contribution process" on KDE, but
>> this is
>> > VERY wrong from a necessitas perspective. KDE might have its own
>> > contribution process but it is irrelevant to us and ridiculous for a
>> > necessitas contributor to have to register a kde account to be able to
>> use
>> > reviewboard, itself, IMHO, a very obscure and complicated system for
>> code
>> > contribution vs. what is existing in github or gitorious.
>> > Obviously, all merge requests in the gitorious clone are ignored.
>> > Pretty please, make gitorious the main repository, use gitorious merge
>> > request system and do whatever KDE stuff you fancy do in your own KDE
>> > corner.
>> >
>>
>> It has everything to do with KDE! Necessitas *IS* a KDE project !
>> Again, searching this list will give you enough informations.
>> I'll try to summarize: When I released first alpha I had to put
>> Ministro libs somewhere,
>> I used some free servers to put the libs, but it was not a good
>> solution. I dedicated my
>> free time to this project and I didn't wanted to give also my money,
>> so I had to find
>> a reliable solution,  back then Nokia just joined Microsoft, to fight
>> against android,
>> so, I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice, we share the
>> same goal:
>> To keep QT free and powerful.
>>
>> Regarding contributions: We want to upstream everything, the problems
>> are:
>>  - Nokia doesn't accept contributions without accepting and sign their
>> contributors agreement,
>>  - I can't move the project to qt-project.org (they don't want it yet
>> because is not finished)
>>  so you can't accept their agreement, when you publish your patch.
>>  - The ONLY solution was to "force" contributors to release their code
>> under BSD or public domain.
>>
>> >
>> > 4) *Accept contribution, reject them, discuss them or ask for update,
>> DON'T
>> > rewrite them*.
>> >
>> > Crying for contribution, then taking some parts of a patch to rewrite
>> it
>> > you way, mostly incompatible with the original patch, is NOT the way to
>> go
>> > to motivate contributors.
>> >
>>
>>   Again I find some of your remarks very insulting, I'm not "crying"
>> for contribution !
>>   I'm happy to have more contributor, but i'm not crying !
>>
>>   Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch
>> or to
>> ask for updates ! e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't
>> work at all,
>> but I've seen a lot potential, so I decide to make it work [2] !
>> I *CREDIT YOU FOR YOUR WORK* and I push a working version, so,
>> what was wrong in that ?
>>
>>   Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last
>> patch,
>> because it was a fiasco, it made the applications almost unusable, is
>> that my fault ?
>> Probably it is, because I trust your patch and I didn't run and check
>> all the tests before push it !
>> The problem is to run and check all the tests it takes too much (1-3
>> days).
>>
>> > 5) *The project is sloooooowwwwww*.
>> >
>> > Due to 1), 2) and Bogdan's limited availability, necessitas is slow to
>> > progress in its own right. I kind of made my own necessitas fork to
>> move
>> > on, and due to 4) it has diverged so much from the main trunk that I'm
>> not
>> > sure I'll bother rebasing.
>> >
>> > 6) *Maybe related to 3), I don't know if it is necessitas or KDE, but
>> one
>> > should definitely learn about the "git rebase" command*.
>> >
>> > All the merges coming from I don't know which branches makes the git
>> > repository unreadable. The proper way to merge upstream is to rebase
>> and
>> > resolve conflicts. Merging upstream is pure lazyness.
>> >
>>
>> WOW you are so good! We didn't know about "git rebase" command !!!
>> Of course you forgot to learn that you can't use "git rebase" command
>> when more than one people is using that branch !
>> Check http://lwn.net/Articles/**328438/ <http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/>for more info on this topic.
>>
>> Merging with upstream is NOT lazyness, is responsibility !
>>
>> > *Bottom line*:
>> >
>> > *Necessitas is NOT a community project*.
>> >
>> > Unless the issues outlined are addressed, It is pointless to whine
>> about
>> > necessitas' lack of contribution.
>> > I suspect many of the more knowledgeable potential contributors will
>> just
>> > take the trunk and adapt it to their needs, without bothering trying to
>> > contribute it back. Unless the project becomes more community friendly,
>> I'm
>> > open to contribute to a potential fork.
>> >
>> > *</RANT>*
>> >
>>
>> I'm open to discuss what is wrong with my vision !
>> I'm open to know other people vision, so, please share your vision
>> with us!
>>
>> Don't forget that this project is based on meritocracy! Even if you
>> have a vision, remember that you must to code it, not only to discuss
>> it !
>>
>> To be clear: I'm open to discuss, but I'm not going to "cry" for
>> contributors or to accept contributions with insults in the same
>> box !
>>
>> > Best Regards
>> > - Chris -
>>
>> [1] https://git.reviewboard.kde.**org/r/103934/diff/#index_**header<https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header>
>> [2]
>> https://projects.kde.org/**projects/playground/mobile/**
>> necessitas/android-qt/**repository/revisions/**
>> 6dc070ff2715fd75e0e8576aa6f4c5**24b824ad42/diff<https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/android-qt/repository/revisions/6dc070ff2715fd75e0e8576aa6f4c524b824ad42/diff>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> BogDan.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Necessitas-devel mailing list
> Necessitas-devel at kde.org
> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/necessitas-devel
>
>
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