Dan, I have already had direct experience with you, with the project and with the - very few things - I have done for it. I totally agree with your comments. And I think - personal point of view too - that you are also too kind with all ... :)<br>
<br>Cheers, Enrico.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 16 March 2012 11:59, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:necessitas-devel-request@kde.org">necessitas-devel-request@kde.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
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<br>Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project (BogDan)<br>
2. Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project (Koying)<br>
<br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: BogDan <<a href="mailto:bog_dan_ro@yahoo.com">bog_dan_ro@yahoo.com</a>><br>To: Koying <<a href="mailto:cbro@semperpax.com">cbro@semperpax.com</a>>, "<a href="mailto:necessitas-devel@kde.org">necessitas-devel@kde.org</a>" <<a href="mailto:necessitas-devel@kde.org">necessitas-devel@kde.org</a>><br>
Cc: <br>Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 10:03:44 -0700 (PDT)<br>Subject: Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project<br><div><div style="font-size:12pt;font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>
> WARNING! This post is a rant, expresses only my own opinion and feelings <br>> might be harmed during the course of this reading. <br><br>> *<RANT>* <br><br>> This post is a reaction to a thread on the dev list where Bogdan was <br>
> lamenting on the lack of commitment to the project. <br>> I found it both laughable and pathetic in the sense that NOTHING is done to <br>> make it a project you can be committed to, and I'll expose, IMHO, why. <br>
<br>Until now I find your remarks very insulting ... <br><br>> 1) *This is a one man (and a half, sorry Ray), "benevolent despot" kind of <br>> project.* <br><br>I'm not going to accept you to insult Ray ! Ray's contribution is not <br>
half ! <br>Because
Ray dedicate his free time to this project, now 4000+ users <br>can use this <br>project on windows and mac ! What have you done for this project ? <br><br>> Bogdan IS the project. Every single decision is made by him without <br>
> discussions nor appeal. He has his vision for the project (that I didn't <br>> find, but it could be hidden in one of the zillions places the project is <br>> scattered into. More on this later) and I don't feel like he is open to <br>
> discuss/challenge this vision. <br><br>I'm confused ! First you say that "He has his vision for the project <br>that I didn't <br>find .. " then you say "I don't feel like he is open to discuss/ <br>
challenge this vision." ! <br>If you don't know my vision, how can you say that I'm not open to <br>discuss it, <br>did we ever discuss it ? <br><br>Anyway, my expectations for this project are
here: <br><a href="http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas" target="_blank">http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas</a><br><br>We (you and me) had a few discussions before, but I don't remember I <br>
have been that close... <br>We talk about menus and about look&feel plugin, I remember that we <br>had different approaches on this topic, you wanted add android <br>look&feel only to <br>your QML, I didn't agreed, because I still want to support class <br>
widgets. <br>It means that I'm not open to discuss? Please give me more hints on <br>this matter ! <br>BTW Android 9patch is more complex than the standard, so, you can't <br>use <br>QML BorderImage (qDrawBorderPixmap) to draw the images ! <br>
<br>> This is human. AFAIK Bogdan created the project and feels he has all rights <br>> on it (which he has), but that prevents real involvement from
others. <br>> Fact is, if Bogdan is unavailable, the project just plain stops. <br><br>Every community project, is based on meritocracy: <br>You code/contribute, then you have the right to make decisions ! <br><br>> 2) *NOTHING is done to make it a community project.* <br>
<br>> I already ranted about this, but the scattering of the project resources is <br>> just plain ridiculous, laughable and a HOWTO not to make a coherent project. <br>> Wiki on sourceforge, 1 mailing list on kde and 1 on google groups, 1 bug <br>
> tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code, unclear/hidden master <br>> repository, unclear contribution process, which leads me to: <br><br>If you search this mailing list you'll find all the informations you <br>
need: <br>- regarding HOWTO and other information: The <a href="http://sf.net" target="_blank">sf.net</a> pages was written <br>by Damine Treg, <br>sadly he didn't had time to
continue, so I asked may times for peoples <br>help ! <br>Nobody wanted to do it! I can't do everything by myself ! <br>- 1 on google groups - this is a high traffic general mailing list <br>used by everybody. <br>- 1 mailing list on kde - this one is a low traffic mailing list <br>
used only by developers, I don't have time to read all posts on <br>google. <br>- 1 bug tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code - it was discuss <br>many times before, ONLY bug tracker on sourceforge should be used. <br>
- unclear/hidden master repository: check <a href="http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories" target="_blank">http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories</a><br>- unclear contribution process, as I already said to you before is not <br>
may fault ! <br><br>> 3) *What the f... does necessitas has to do with KDE?* <br><br>> I only assume Bogdan and Ray
are KDE devs and that it is easy for them to <br>> host necessitas's master git and "contribution process" on KDE, but this is <br>> VERY wrong from a necessitas perspective. KDE might have its own <br>
> contribution process but it is irrelevant to us and ridiculous for a <br>> necessitas contributor to have to register a kde account to be able to use <br>> reviewboard, itself, IMHO, a very obscure and complicated system for code <br>
> contribution vs. what is existing in github or gitorious. <br>> Obviously, all merge requests in the gitorious clone are ignored. <br>> Pretty please, make gitorious the main repository, use gitorious merge <br>
> request system and do whatever KDE stuff you fancy do in your own KDE <br>> corner. <br><br>It has everything to do with KDE! Necessitas *IS* a KDE project ! <br>Again, searching this list will give you enough
informations. <br>I'll try to summarize: When I released first alpha I had to put <br>Ministro libs somewhere, <br>I used some free servers to put the libs, but it was not a good <br>solution. I dedicated my <br>free time to this project and I didn't wanted to give also my money, <br>
so I had to find <br>a reliable solution, back then Nokia just joined Microsoft, to fight <br>against android, <br>so, I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice, we share the <br>same goal: <br>To keep QT free and powerful. <br>
<br>Regarding contributions: We want to upstream everything, the problems <br>are: <br> - Nokia doesn't accept contributions without accepting and sign their <br>contributors agreement, <br> - I can't move the project to <a href="http://qt-project.org" target="_blank">qt-project.org</a> (they don't want it yet <br>
because is not finished) <br> so you can't accept their agreement,
when you publish your patch. <br> - The ONLY solution was to "force" contributors to release their code <br>under BSD or public domain. <br><br>> 4) *Accept contribution, reject them, discuss them or ask for update, DON'T <br>
> rewrite them*. <br><br>> Crying for contribution, then taking some parts of a patch to rewrite it <br>> you way, mostly incompatible with the original patch, is NOT the way to go <br>> to motivate contributors. <br>
<br> Again I find some of your remarks very insulting, I'm not "crying" <br>for contribution ! <br> I'm happy to have more contributor, but i'm not crying ! <br><br> Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch <br>
or to <br>ask for updates ! e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't <br>work at all, <br>but I've seen a lot potential, so I decide to make it work [2] ! <br>I
*CREDIT YOU FOR YOUR WORK* and I push a working version, so, <br>what was wrong in that ? <br><br> Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last <br>patch, <br>because it was a fiasco, it made the applications almost unusable, is <br>
that my fault ? <br>Probably it is, because I trust your patch and I didn't run and check <br>all the tests before push it ! <br>The problem is to run and check all the tests it takes too much (1-3 <br>days). <br><br>
> 5) *The project is sloooooowwwwww*. <br><br>> Due to 1), 2) and Bogdan's limited availability, necessitas is slow to <br>> progress in its own right. I kind of made my own necessitas fork to move <br>> on, and due to 4) it has diverged so much from the main trunk that I'm not <br>
> sure I'll bother rebasing. <br><br>> 6) *Maybe related to 3), I don't know if it is necessitas or KDE, but
one <br>> should definitely learn about the "git rebase" command*. <br><br>> All the merges coming from I don't know which branches makes the git <br>> repository unreadable. The proper way to merge upstream is to rebase and <br>
> resolve conflicts. Merging upstream is pure lazyness. <br><br>WOW you are so good! We didn't know about "git rebase" command !!! <br>Of course you forgot to learn that you can't use "git rebase" command <br>
when more than one people is using that branch ! <br>Check <a href="http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/" target="_blank">http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/</a> for more info on this topic. <br><br>Merging with upstream is NOT lazyness, is responsibility ! <br>
<br>> *Bottom line*: <br><br>> *Necessitas is NOT a community project*. <br><br>> Unless the issues outlined are addressed, It is pointless to whine about <br>> necessitas' lack
of contribution. <br>> I suspect many of the more knowledgeable potential contributors will just <br>> take the trunk and adapt it to their needs, without bothering trying to <br>> contribute it back. Unless the project becomes more community friendly, I'm <br>
> open to contribute to a potential fork. <br><br>> *</RANT>* <br><br>I'm open to discuss what is wrong with my vision ! <br>I'm open to know other people vision, so, please share your vision <br>with us! <br>
<br>Don't forget that this project is based on meritocracy! Even if you <br>have a vision, remember that you must to code it, not only to discuss <br>it ! <br><br>To be clear: I'm open to discuss, but I'm not going to "cry" for <br>
contributors or to accept contributions with insults in the same <br>box ! <br><br>> Best Regards <br>> - Chris - <br><br>[1] <a href="https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header" target="_blank">https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header</a><br>
[2] <br><a href="https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/androi" target="_blank">https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/androi</a>... <br><br>Cheers, <br>BogDan. <br></div> </div>
</div><br><br>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>From: Koying <<a href="mailto:cbro@semperpax.com">cbro@semperpax.com</a>><br>To: <a href="mailto:android-qt@googlegroups.com">android-qt@googlegroups.com</a><br>
Cc: <a href="mailto:necessitas-devel@kde.org">necessitas-devel@kde.org</a><br>Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 03:59:35 -0700 (PDT)<br>Subject: Re: Necessitas is NOT a community project<br>I won't put great length into my final answer, because my point, i.e. necessitas NOT being a community project, has not been refuted, nor do I see in Bogdan's answer any sign that my points will be addressed in to foreseeable future.<br>
<br>Just some specific points:<br><br>1) Insulting<br><br> I didn't insult anybody. I probably hurt feelings but you were forewarned. Re Ray, I was referring to his own quote:<br><br>"I just handle Mac and Windows builds and our own version of the ndk<br>
toolchains, I'd like to help out more on the Qt side but I'm basically<br>
a novice with Qt still, plus, I've fallen behind on ndk work anyway."<br><br>2) Vision (<a href="http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas" target="_blank">http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas</a>)<br>
<br>Oh, you mean there is yet ANOTHER place to look for information re necessitas? Besides, this a TODO list, not a vision.<br>One thing I understand is that Widgets are more important to you than QML, even though Qt is deprecating their use on mobile device.<br>
Your call, but I think this is a waste of time/resource, and I admit I'm somewhat frustrated you refuse to integrate the QML
components (either mine's or Kate's) because it doesn't have the "Android
look& feel", which seems fallacious to me, especially considering the alpha state of the project and that the widgets do not have it either.<br><br>3) KDE; ah, KDE:<br><br>"I didn't wanted to give also my money": If you don't want to use one of the numerous free solutions for hosting FLOSS projects as to make the project coherent, please organize a fund raising. I'm pretty sure you'll get the $150 for a yearly hosting plan in a matter of seconds.<br>
<br>"I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice": Why "joining somebody"? To host the project? See above. KDE a natural choice? Why? Because they're using Qt? In that sense, you could as well have asked QGIS to host necessitas. At least they officially support multiplatform.<br>
<br>4) Patches:<br><br>"Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch": Oh indeed, it is ALWAYS faster, but it is not how it works in a community project.<br>"e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't
work at all": My point exactly. You didn't discuss the supposed fact that it doesn't work with me (although it works pretty well for me, thank you).<br>"Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last
patch,
because it was a fiasco": Not a bit frustrated about the revert. I KNEW it wasn't working as it should. I'm frustrated because I proposed a solution (limit to /assets) both on the dev list and on the reviewboard, without ANY reaction.<br>
<br>OK, that's about it. <br>I'm still not 100% sure Qt on Android is viable as a "commercial" alternative but thanks to Bogdan's great work, I was able to port my pet Qt/QML apps from Symbian to Android and they work great with some patches.<br>
<br>For what it's worth, my necessitas clone is at <a href="https://gitorious.org/%7Ekoying/qt/koyings-android-lighthouse" target="_blank">https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt/koyings-android-lighthouse</a> (Native Options Menu + Native Context Menu + "/assets" only + Native Share menu soon)<br>
My Symbian derivated QML Components are at <a href="https://gitorious.org/%7Ekoying/qt-components/android-qt-components" target="_blank">https://gitorious.org/~koying/qt-components/android-qt-components</a> (Native Options Menu + Native Context Menu + Native Share menu soon)<br>
Don't forget Kate's Meego-derived components, either (We should really merge those...)<br><br>Best Regards<br>- Chris -<br><br><br>On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:01:46 PM UTC+1, BogDan wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Chris,
<br>
<br>On Mar 15, 1:07 pm, Koying <<a>c...@semperpax.com</a>> wrote:
<br>> WARNING! This post is a rant, expresses only my own opinion and feelings
<br>> might be harmed during the course of this reading.
<br>>
<br>> *<RANT>*
<br>>
<br>> This post is a reaction to a thread on the dev list where Bogdan was
<br>> lamenting on the lack of commitment to the project.
<br>> I found it both laughable and pathetic in the sense that NOTHING is done to
<br>> make it a project you can be committed to, and I'll expose, IMHO, why.
<br>>
<br>
<br>Until now I find your remarks very insulting ...
<br>
<br>> 1) *This is a one man (and a half, sorry Ray), "benevolent despot" kind of
<br>> project.*
<br>>
<br>
<br>I'm not going to accept you to insult Ray ! Ray's contribution is not
<br>half !
<br>Because Ray dedicate his free time to this project, now 4000+ users
<br>can use this
<br>project on windows and mac ! What have you done for this project ?
<br>
<br>>
<br>> Bogdan IS the project. Every single decision is made by him without
<br>> discussions nor appeal. He has his vision for the project (that I didn't
<br>> find, but it could be hidden in one of the zillions places the project is
<br>> scattered into. More on this later) and I don't feel like he is open to
<br>> discuss/challenge this vision.
<br>
<br>I'm confused ! First you say that "He has his vision for the project
<br>that I didn't
<br>find .. " then you say "I don't feel like he is open to discuss/
<br>challenge this vision." !
<br>If you don't know my vision, how can you say that I'm not open to
<br>discuss it,
<br>did we ever discuss it ?
<br>
<br>Anyway, my expectations for this project are here:
<br><a href="http://community.kde.org/index.php?title=Necessitas" target="_blank">http://community.kde.org/<u></u>index.php?title=Necessitas</a>
<br>
<br>We (you and me) had a few discussions before, but I don't remember I
<br>have been that close...
<br>We talk about menus and about look&feel plugin, I remember that we
<br>had different approaches on this topic, you wanted add android
<br>look&feel only to
<br>your QML, I didn't agreed, because I still want to support class
<br>widgets.
<br>It means that I'm not open to discuss? Please give me more hints on
<br>this matter !
<br>BTW Android 9patch is more complex than the standard, so, you can't
<br>use
<br>QML BorderImage (qDrawBorderPixmap) to draw the images !
<br>
<br>> This is human. AFAIK Bogdan created the project and feels he has all rights
<br>> on it (which he has), but that prevents real involvement from others.
<br>> Fact is, if Bogdan is unavailable, the project just plain stops.
<br>>
<br>
<br>Every community project, is based on meritocracy:
<br>You code/contribute, then you have the right to make decisions !
<br>
<br>> 2) *NOTHING is done to make it a community project.*
<br>>
<br>> I already ranted about this, but the scattering of the project resources is
<br>> just plain ridiculous, laughable and a HOWTO not to make a coherent project.
<br>> Wiki on sourceforge, 1 mailing list on kde and 1 on google groups, 1 bug
<br>> tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code, unclear/hidden master
<br>> repository, unclear contribution process, which leads me to:
<br>>
<br>
<br>If you search this mailing list you'll find all the informations you
<br>need:
<br>- regarding HOWTO and other information: The <a href="http://sf.net" target="_blank">sf.net</a> pages was written
<br>by Damine Treg,
<br>sadly he didn't had time to continue, so I asked may times for peoples
<br>help !
<br>Nobody wanted to do it! I can't do everything by myself !
<br>- 1 on google groups - this is a high traffic general mailing list
<br>used by everybody.
<br>- 1 mailing list on kde - this one is a low traffic mailing list
<br>used only by developers, I don't have time to read all posts on
<br>google.
<br>- 1 bug tracker on sourceforge and 1 on google code - it was discuss
<br>many times before, ONLY bug tracker on sourceforge should be used.
<br>- unclear/hidden master repository: check <a href="http://community.kde.org/Necessitas/Repositories" target="_blank">http://community.kde.org/<u></u>Necessitas/Repositories</a>
<br>- unclear contribution process, as I already said to you before is not
<br>may fault !
<br>
<br>
<br>> 3) *What the f... does necessitas has to do with KDE?*
<br>>
<br>> I only assume Bogdan and Ray are KDE devs and that it is easy for them to
<br>> host necessitas's master git and "contribution process" on KDE, but this is
<br>> VERY wrong from a necessitas perspective. KDE might have its own
<br>> contribution process but it is irrelevant to us and ridiculous for a
<br>> necessitas contributor to have to register a kde account to be able to use
<br>> reviewboard, itself, IMHO, a very obscure and complicated system for code
<br>> contribution vs. what is existing in github or gitorious.
<br>> Obviously, all merge requests in the gitorious clone are ignored.
<br>> Pretty please, make gitorious the main repository, use gitorious merge
<br>> request system and do whatever KDE stuff you fancy do in your own KDE
<br>> corner.
<br>>
<br>
<br>It has everything to do with KDE! Necessitas *IS* a KDE project !
<br>Again, searching this list will give you enough informations.
<br>I'll try to summarize: When I released first alpha I had to put
<br>Ministro libs somewhere,
<br>I used some free servers to put the libs, but it was not a good
<br>solution. I dedicated my
<br>free time to this project and I didn't wanted to give also my money,
<br>so I had to find
<br>a reliable solution, back then Nokia just joined Microsoft, to fight
<br>against android,
<br>so, I had to join somebody, KDE was the natural choice, we share the
<br>same goal:
<br>To keep QT free and powerful.
<br>
<br>Regarding contributions: We want to upstream everything, the problems
<br>are:
<br> - Nokia doesn't accept contributions without accepting and sign their
<br>contributors agreement,
<br> - I can't move the project to <a href="http://qt-project.org" target="_blank">qt-project.org</a> (they don't want it yet
<br>because is not finished)
<br> so you can't accept their agreement, when you publish your patch.
<br> - The ONLY solution was to "force" contributors to release their code
<br>under BSD or public domain.
<br>
<br>>
<br>> 4) *Accept contribution, reject them, discuss them or ask for update, DON'T
<br>> rewrite them*.
<br>>
<br>> Crying for contribution, then taking some parts of a patch to rewrite it
<br>> you way, mostly incompatible with the original patch, is NOT the way to go
<br>> to motivate contributors.
<br>>
<br>
<br> Again I find some of your remarks very insulting, I'm not "crying"
<br>for contribution !
<br> I'm happy to have more contributor, but i'm not crying !
<br>
<br> Some time is easier/faster to rewrite them, then to reject a patch
<br>or to
<br>ask for updates ! e.g. the menus patch that you sent [1], it didn't
<br>work at all,
<br>but I've seen a lot potential, so I decide to make it work [2] !
<br>I *CREDIT YOU FOR YOUR WORK* and I push a working version, so,
<br>what was wrong in that ?
<br>
<br> Probably you are frustrated because I had to revert your last
<br>patch,
<br>because it was a fiasco, it made the applications almost unusable, is
<br>that my fault ?
<br>Probably it is, because I trust your patch and I didn't run and check
<br>all the tests before push it !
<br>The problem is to run and check all the tests it takes too much (1-3
<br>days).
<br>
<br>> 5) *The project is sloooooowwwwww*.
<br>>
<br>> Due to 1), 2) and Bogdan's limited availability, necessitas is slow to
<br>> progress in its own right. I kind of made my own necessitas fork to move
<br>> on, and due to 4) it has diverged so much from the main trunk that I'm not
<br>> sure I'll bother rebasing.
<br>>
<br>> 6) *Maybe related to 3), I don't know if it is necessitas or KDE, but one
<br>> should definitely learn about the "git rebase" command*.
<br>>
<br>> All the merges coming from I don't know which branches makes the git
<br>> repository unreadable. The proper way to merge upstream is to rebase and
<br>> resolve conflicts. Merging upstream is pure lazyness.
<br>>
<br>
<br>WOW you are so good! We didn't know about "git rebase" command !!!
<br>Of course you forgot to learn that you can't use "git rebase" command
<br>when more than one people is using that branch !
<br>Check <a href="http://lwn.net/Articles/328438/" target="_blank">http://lwn.net/Articles/<u></u>328438/</a> for more info on this topic.
<br>
<br>Merging with upstream is NOT lazyness, is responsibility !
<br>
<br>> *Bottom line*:
<br>>
<br>> *Necessitas is NOT a community project*.
<br>>
<br>> Unless the issues outlined are addressed, It is pointless to whine about
<br>> necessitas' lack of contribution.
<br>> I suspect many of the more knowledgeable potential contributors will just
<br>> take the trunk and adapt it to their needs, without bothering trying to
<br>> contribute it back. Unless the project becomes more community friendly, I'm
<br>> open to contribute to a potential fork.
<br>>
<br>> *</RANT>*
<br>>
<br>
<br>I'm open to discuss what is wrong with my vision !
<br>I'm open to know other people vision, so, please share your vision
<br>with us!
<br>
<br>Don't forget that this project is based on meritocracy! Even if you
<br>have a vision, remember that you must to code it, not only to discuss
<br>it !
<br>
<br>To be clear: I'm open to discuss, but I'm not going to "cry" for
<br>contributors or to accept contributions with insults in the same
<br>box !
<br>
<br>> Best Regards
<br>> - Chris -
<br>
<br>[1] <a href="https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/103934/diff/#index_header" target="_blank">https://git.reviewboard.kde.<u></u>org/r/103934/diff/#index_<u></u>header</a>
<br>[2]
<br><a href="https://projects.kde.org/projects/playground/mobile/necessitas/android-qt/repository/revisions/6dc070ff2715fd75e0e8576aa6f4c524b824ad42/diff" target="_blank">https://projects.kde.org/<u></u>projects/playground/mobile/<u></u>necessitas/android-qt/<u></u>repository/revisions/<u></u>6dc070ff2715fd75e0e8576aa6f4c5<u></u>24b824ad42/diff</a>
<br>
<br>Cheers,
<br>BogDan.
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