Really tried to use KStars and EKOS
Jasem Mutlaq
mutlaqja at ikarustech.com
Mon Jun 16 20:22:31 BST 2025
This is already supported. You just need to specify the position angle in
the scheduler. Check the video here:
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/kgfu18vfxuspq010fi1yu/manual_rotator.mp4?rlkey=u1oo6dl22fy93rd3suznbe3lf&dl=0
Btw, I already mentioned this before, you can also toggle Mosaic Planner
from the toolbar and simply change the position angle there as well and see
the FOV rotates accordingly. You don't have to use the mosaic planner
itself, but this allows you to quickly change the PA to see the orientation.
--
Best Regards,
Jasem Mutlaq
On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 10:11 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jasem,
>
> That is exactly what I am looking for, but I don't see a way to specify an
> angle unless I have a rotator in the hardware configuration. What am I
> missing?
>
> I'm looking to be able to add an object to a schedule and when that
> schedule runs the initial slew would include rotating to the desired angle
> as well as plate solved accuracy. As I try out the program I'm not seeing
> how to specify the angle unless I have a rotator in the equipment chain.
>
> Mark Casazza
> http://casazza.net
> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 12:25 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Mark,
>>
>> Can you elaborate on the Manual Rotator bit? Right now in the Align
>> module, you can "Load & Slew" an image, and if you don't have a rotator, a
>> manual dialog will popup to ask you to manually rotate until the desired
>> Position Angle detected in the FITS file is achieved.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 11:48 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> I haven't ever messed with the rotator code. That's more Jasem's and
>>> Toni Schriber's department.
>>>
>>> Re the mouse-command rotation, if I had to take a wild guess I'd say we
>>> just have to figure out what are the
>>> right keys. Perhaps experimenting with which key is the alt key,
>>> assuming there are other possibilities, and also making sure shift is
>>> depressed before the other keys and before the left mouse press-and-hold.
>>>
>>> If you can compile and debug/test, just put a printout at the start of
>>> this method to see which keys are pressed:
>>>
>>> https://invent.kde.org/education/kstars/-/blob/master/kstars/skymapevents.cpp?ref_type=heads#L797
>>> and to see what needs to be done to get inside this if statement
>>>
>>> https://invent.kde.org/education/kstars/-/blob/master/kstars/skymapevents.cpp?ref_type=heads#L802
>>>
>>> Hy
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 2:31 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hy,
>>>>
>>>> Shift-Ctrl-Alt mosue drag does not work on Intel hardware running
>>>> Kubuntu and a standard "Windows" keyboard.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not worried about the screen grab & solve feature. I now know it is
>>>> there and will probably use it some day, but I don't see it as a common
>>>> need.
>>>>
>>>> Any word on the *manual rotator*? That seems to be my only remaining
>>>> blocker (assuming we can figure out the FOV rotation issue).
>>>>
>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 10:20 AM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> Re the rotation, please note it isn't shift and most drag. Try this:
>>>>> hold down shift, then hold down control & alt, then (with all three
>>>>> still pressed) drag the mouse and you should see the FOV rotate (as opposed
>>>>> to the sky).
>>>>> I should make this simpler, but please verify this works for you. I
>>>>> just tried it and it worked for me. (On my Mac running an Ubuntu VM, the
>>>>> alt is the "Option" button.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Re the 1 monitor, what I do is initiate the screen grab, then use the
>>>>> keyboard to pop-up different windows until the one with the image I want to
>>>>> grab comes to the foreground.
>>>>> On my Mac/VM/Ubuntu setup, that is using Option-Tab to get the various
>>>>> windows to cycle to the top. I do this on my 16" laptop successfully.
>>>>> Please give it a try and let me know.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 7:44 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I assumed there was some feature to turn on the overlay. I found it.
>>>>>> Admittedly when in the field with very slow internet it really won't be
>>>>>> that helpful. An offline full sky image would be very helpful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I watched the video and my shift mouse button rotates the sky, not
>>>>>> the FOV. And I must say doing the screen capture plate solve on 1 monitor
>>>>>> is infuriating. The wrong app kept coming up. I'm no fan of the screen shot
>>>>>> plate solve, but I also don't see myself using it. I do like the rotate
>>>>>> with shift and the mouse. I was hoping there was some feature like that.
>>>>>> When I click the star icon to pull the location into the scheduler, I get
>>>>>> what seems like a nearby location, but not the exact one. I can explore
>>>>>> this a bit more. *Any idea why my sky rotates and in the video the
>>>>>> FOV rotates?*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be happy to share my spreadsheet of targets. Even at its size
>>>>>> I find myself adding more all the time. It is basically a subset of
>>>>>> multiple catalogs with objects big enough that they frame reasonably well
>>>>>> with the longest focal length all the way up to mosaics with my shortest
>>>>>> focal length. I'll DM you the spreadsheet. I agree many objects don't show
>>>>>> off well, but I still enjoy the challenge of those types of targets. (i.e.
>>>>>> LBN 543).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The remaining miss is the *manual rotator*. I am so looking forward
>>>>>> to hearing that my search was insufficient and there is a manual rotator.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am greatly encouraged so far. EKOS is looking better with each
>>>>>> reply.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:04 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we
>>>>>>> don't hear back from our users, so appreciate it. Also, I want to mention
>>>>>>> out front that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better,
>>>>>>> to actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help
>>>>>>> you with that process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images
>>>>>>> including rotation,
>>>>>>> - You're having issues with catalogs
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and
>>>>>>> in fact I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but
>>>>>>> likely the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular
>>>>>>> between 2:30 and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust
>>>>>>> rotation and add it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick
>>>>>>> process once you've created your field of view--just search for the object,
>>>>>>> drag the FOV to compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse
>>>>>>> drag. The same process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner
>>>>>>> at all, but rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the
>>>>>>> skymap. Once you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the
>>>>>>> scheduler tab to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I
>>>>>>> don't think there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler,
>>>>>>> but you could just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on
>>>>>>> the skymap at the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that. Note--it
>>>>>>> seems like there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the
>>>>>>> video--it might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just
>>>>>>> tried it and holding shift-control-option and then left
>>>>>>> clicking-and-dragging the mouse worked for me. If you have issues with
>>>>>>> that, try to shift first, then the other keys, I've seen that come up. We
>>>>>>> can remap that shortcut if need be. Anyway, please let me know where that
>>>>>>> technique falls short.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an
>>>>>>> updated catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555
>>>>>>> objects, but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's
>>>>>>> not the 2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC
>>>>>>> and IC catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
>>>>>>> online. Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
>>>>>>> Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
>>>>>>> described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
>>>>>>> perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
>>>>>>> imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
>>>>>>> even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
>>>>>>> this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
>>>>>>> which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
>>>>>>> where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
>>>>>>> Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
>>>>>>> (Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
>>>>>>> Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
>>>>>>> that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
>>>>>>> images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
>>>>>>> images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
>>>>>>> If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
>>>>>>> license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
>>>>>>> know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
>>>>>>> catalog.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I
>>>>>>> think that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every
>>>>>>> NGC/IC item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So,
>>>>>>> when I was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and
>>>>>>> objects from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
>>>>>>> objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
>>>>>>> for them?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's
>>>>>>> the Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are
>>>>>>> target dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know
>>>>>>> what you think,
>>>>>>> Hy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <
>>>>>>> rlancaste at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily
>>>>>>>> resolved. You said this:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the
>>>>>>>> Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap? If you turn that on
>>>>>>>> and select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the
>>>>>>>> veil and many other targets. This feature is great for framing and looking
>>>>>>>> at how targets will look on your sensor. Pairing this with the fov
>>>>>>>> rectangle for your sensor is a game changer. I use this feature constantly
>>>>>>>> myself.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Jasem,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it
>>>>>>>> work for me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my
>>>>>>>> use cases.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till
>>>>>>>> dawn at a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with
>>>>>>>> filters. Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only
>>>>>>>> image 1, or sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera
>>>>>>>> rotation. When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong
>>>>>>>> dual band filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my
>>>>>>>> simplistic filter use I provide the filter changes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
>>>>>>>> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
>>>>>>>> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
>>>>>>>> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
>>>>>>>> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
>>>>>>>> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
>>>>>>>> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
>>>>>>>> set all is good.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up
>>>>>>>> myself. While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging
>>>>>>>> Planner tool both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is
>>>>>>>> so click heavy that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA
>>>>>>>> I can set the rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating
>>>>>>>> when I want to image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the
>>>>>>>> optimal camera rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back
>>>>>>>> and forth to try various orientations on each object. If each orientation
>>>>>>>> took minutes, not seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my
>>>>>>>> feedback I woudl love to hear that there is a feature or method that I have
>>>>>>>> yet to discover. This is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Open Kstars
>>>>>>>> 2. Select Search icon
>>>>>>>> 3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph"
>>>>>>>> does not find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet
>>>>>>>> Telephus 1991 KC)
>>>>>>>> 4. Select the object from the list
>>>>>>>> 5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity;
>>>>>>>> even the Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>>>>> 1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>>>>>>>> supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>>>>>>>> 6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how
>>>>>>>> the object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>>>>>>>> 7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>>>>>>>> 1. Settings
>>>>>>>> 2. FOV
>>>>>>>> 3. Edit FOV
>>>>>>>> 4. Pick camera
>>>>>>>> 5. Edit
>>>>>>>> 6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>>>>>>>> 7. Okay
>>>>>>>> 8. Okay
>>>>>>>> 9. See results and repeat as needed.
>>>>>>>> 10. Yikes!
>>>>>>>> 8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, &
>>>>>>>> rotation to set up the exposure sequence. It woudl be very helpful to
>>>>>>>> quickly jump into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the
>>>>>>>> place to develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary
>>>>>>>> nebulosity visible but lacks:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with
>>>>>>>> various focal lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I
>>>>>>>> really need 2 monitors...
>>>>>>>> 2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list,
>>>>>>>> but reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary
>>>>>>>> list with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a
>>>>>>>> highly customized spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my
>>>>>>>> target by designation and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>>>>>>>> 3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. Open NINA
>>>>>>>> 2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>>>>>>>> 3. Select "Framing"
>>>>>>>> 4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and
>>>>>>>> pick it from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph" to find the elephant
>>>>>>>> trunk nebula)
>>>>>>>> 5. Select Load Image.
>>>>>>>> 1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>>>>>>>> 2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>>>>>>>> 6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag
>>>>>>>> the sky around to properly frame up the shot.
>>>>>>>> 7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal
>>>>>>>> length I initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page
>>>>>>>> and the camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views
>>>>>>>> with various compressors and extenders.
>>>>>>>> 8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field
>>>>>>>> of view. I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>>>>>>>> 9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are
>>>>>>>> updated so creating a session is reduced to:
>>>>>>>> 1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>>>>>>>> 2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>>>>>>>> 3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>>>>>>>> 10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>>>>>>>> details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but
>>>>>>>> I know even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest
>>>>>>>> thing that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the
>>>>>>>> need for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
>>>>>>>> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
>>>>>>>> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
>>>>>>>> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
>>>>>>>> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
>>>>>>>> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
>>>>>>>> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
>>>>>>>> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
>>>>>>>> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
>>>>>>>> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential.
>>>>>>>> I look forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <
>>>>>>>> mutlaqja at ikarustech.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you.
>>>>>>>>> Please share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <
>>>>>>>>> markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for
>>>>>>>>>> KStars and EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I
>>>>>>>>>> really want to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device
>>>>>>>>>> except the two that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now
>>>>>>>>>> running Kubuntu with no regrets.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making
>>>>>>>>>> the jump for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the
>>>>>>>>>> feature set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it
>>>>>>>>>> would be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars
>>>>>>>>>> and globulars in other galaxies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and
>>>>>>>>>> suggest a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items
>>>>>>>>>> that might be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev
>>>>>>>>>> teams have their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several
>>>>>>>>>> friends very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>>>>>>>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>>>>>>>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>>>>>>>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Clear skies,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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