Really tried to use KStars and EKOS
Mark Casazza
markcasazza at gmail.com
Mon Jun 16 20:11:11 BST 2025
Jasem,
That is exactly what I am looking for, but I don't see a way to specify an
angle unless I have a rotator in the hardware configuration. What am I
missing?
I'm looking to be able to add an object to a schedule and when that
schedule runs the initial slew would include rotating to the desired angle
as well as plate solved accuracy. As I try out the program I'm not seeing
how to specify the angle unless I have a rotator in the equipment chain.
Mark Casazza
http://casazza.net
Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
On Mon, Jun 16, 2025 at 12:25 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
wrote:
> Hello Mark,
>
> Can you elaborate on the Manual Rotator bit? Right now in the Align
> module, you can "Load & Slew" an image, and if you don't have a rotator, a
> manual dialog will popup to ask you to manually rotate until the desired
> Position Angle detected in the FITS file is achieved.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Jasem Mutlaq
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 11:48 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I haven't ever messed with the rotator code. That's more Jasem's and Toni
>> Schriber's department.
>>
>> Re the mouse-command rotation, if I had to take a wild guess I'd say we
>> just have to figure out what are the
>> right keys. Perhaps experimenting with which key is the alt key, assuming
>> there are other possibilities, and also making sure shift is depressed
>> before the other keys and before the left mouse press-and-hold.
>>
>> If you can compile and debug/test, just put a printout at the start of
>> this method to see which keys are pressed:
>>
>> https://invent.kde.org/education/kstars/-/blob/master/kstars/skymapevents.cpp?ref_type=heads#L797
>> and to see what needs to be done to get inside this if statement
>>
>> https://invent.kde.org/education/kstars/-/blob/master/kstars/skymapevents.cpp?ref_type=heads#L802
>>
>> Hy
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 15, 2025 at 2:31 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hy,
>>>
>>> Shift-Ctrl-Alt mosue drag does not work on Intel hardware running
>>> Kubuntu and a standard "Windows" keyboard.
>>>
>>> I'm not worried about the screen grab & solve feature. I now know it is
>>> there and will probably use it some day, but I don't see it as a common
>>> need.
>>>
>>> Any word on the *manual rotator*? That seems to be my only remaining
>>> blocker (assuming we can figure out the FOV rotation issue).
>>>
>>> Mark Casazza
>>> http://casazza.net
>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 10:20 AM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Re the rotation, please note it isn't shift and most drag. Try this:
>>>> hold down shift, then hold down control & alt, then (with all three
>>>> still pressed) drag the mouse and you should see the FOV rotate (as opposed
>>>> to the sky).
>>>> I should make this simpler, but please verify this works for you. I
>>>> just tried it and it worked for me. (On my Mac running an Ubuntu VM, the
>>>> alt is the "Option" button.)
>>>>
>>>> Re the 1 monitor, what I do is initiate the screen grab, then use the
>>>> keyboard to pop-up different windows until the one with the image I want to
>>>> grab comes to the foreground.
>>>> On my Mac/VM/Ubuntu setup, that is using Option-Tab to get the various
>>>> windows to cycle to the top. I do this on my 16" laptop successfully.
>>>> Please give it a try and let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Hy
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 7:44 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Robert,
>>>>>
>>>>> I assumed there was some feature to turn on the overlay. I found it.
>>>>> Admittedly when in the field with very slow internet it really won't be
>>>>> that helpful. An offline full sky image would be very helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hy,
>>>>>
>>>>> I watched the video and my shift mouse button rotates the sky, not the
>>>>> FOV. And I must say doing the screen capture plate solve on 1 monitor is
>>>>> infuriating. The wrong app kept coming up. I'm no fan of the screen shot
>>>>> plate solve, but I also don't see myself using it. I do like the rotate
>>>>> with shift and the mouse. I was hoping there was some feature like that.
>>>>> When I click the star icon to pull the location into the scheduler, I get
>>>>> what seems like a nearby location, but not the exact one. I can explore
>>>>> this a bit more. *Any idea why my sky rotates and in the video the
>>>>> FOV rotates?*
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be happy to share my spreadsheet of targets. Even at its size
>>>>> I find myself adding more all the time. It is basically a subset of
>>>>> multiple catalogs with objects big enough that they frame reasonably well
>>>>> with the longest focal length all the way up to mosaics with my shortest
>>>>> focal length. I'll DM you the spreadsheet. I agree many objects don't show
>>>>> off well, but I still enjoy the challenge of those types of targets. (i.e.
>>>>> LBN 543).
>>>>>
>>>>> The remaining miss is the *manual rotator*. I am so looking forward
>>>>> to hearing that my search was insufficient and there is a manual rotator.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am greatly encouraged so far. EKOS is looking better with each
>>>>> reply.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:04 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we don't
>>>>>> hear back from our users, so appreciate it. Also, I want to mention out
>>>>>> front that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better, to
>>>>>> actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help you
>>>>>> with that process.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images including
>>>>>> rotation,
>>>>>> - You're having issues with catalogs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and
>>>>>> in fact I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but
>>>>>> likely the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular
>>>>>> between 2:30 and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust
>>>>>> rotation and add it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick
>>>>>> process once you've created your field of view--just search for the object,
>>>>>> drag the FOV to compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse
>>>>>> drag. The same process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner
>>>>>> at all, but rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the
>>>>>> skymap. Once you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the
>>>>>> scheduler tab to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I
>>>>>> don't think there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler,
>>>>>> but you could just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on
>>>>>> the skymap at the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that. Note--it
>>>>>> seems like there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the
>>>>>> video--it might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just
>>>>>> tried it and holding shift-control-option and then left
>>>>>> clicking-and-dragging the mouse worked for me. If you have issues with
>>>>>> that, try to shift first, then the other keys, I've seen that come up. We
>>>>>> can remap that shortcut if need be. Anyway, please let me know where that
>>>>>> technique falls short.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an
>>>>>> updated catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555
>>>>>> objects, but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's
>>>>>> not the 2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC
>>>>>> and IC catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
>>>>>> online. Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
>>>>>> Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
>>>>>> described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
>>>>>> perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
>>>>>> imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
>>>>>> even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
>>>>>> this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
>>>>>> which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
>>>>>> where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
>>>>>> Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
>>>>>> (Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
>>>>>> Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
>>>>>> that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
>>>>>> images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
>>>>>> images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
>>>>>> If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
>>>>>> license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
>>>>>> know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
>>>>>> catalog.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I
>>>>>> think that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every
>>>>>> NGC/IC item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So,
>>>>>> when I was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and
>>>>>> objects from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
>>>>>> objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
>>>>>> for them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's
>>>>>> the Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are
>>>>>> target dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know
>>>>>> what you think,
>>>>>> Hy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <
>>>>>> rlancaste at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily
>>>>>>> resolved. You said this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the
>>>>>>> Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap? If you turn that on and
>>>>>>> select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the veil
>>>>>>> and many other targets. This feature is great for framing and looking at
>>>>>>> how targets will look on your sensor. Pairing this with the fov rectangle
>>>>>>> for your sensor is a game changer. I use this feature constantly myself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jasem,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it
>>>>>>> work for me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my
>>>>>>> use cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till
>>>>>>> dawn at a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with
>>>>>>> filters. Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only
>>>>>>> image 1, or sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera
>>>>>>> rotation. When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong
>>>>>>> dual band filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my
>>>>>>> simplistic filter use I provide the filter changes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
>>>>>>> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
>>>>>>> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
>>>>>>> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
>>>>>>> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
>>>>>>> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
>>>>>>> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
>>>>>>> set all is good.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up
>>>>>>> myself. While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging
>>>>>>> Planner tool both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is
>>>>>>> so click heavy that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA
>>>>>>> I can set the rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating
>>>>>>> when I want to image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the
>>>>>>> optimal camera rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back
>>>>>>> and forth to try various orientations on each object. If each orientation
>>>>>>> took minutes, not seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my
>>>>>>> feedback I woudl love to hear that there is a feature or method that I have
>>>>>>> yet to discover. This is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Open Kstars
>>>>>>> 2. Select Search icon
>>>>>>> 3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph" does
>>>>>>> not find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet
>>>>>>> Telephus 1991 KC)
>>>>>>> 4. Select the object from the list
>>>>>>> 5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity;
>>>>>>> even the Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>>>> 1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>>>>>>> supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>>>>>>> 6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how
>>>>>>> the object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>>>>>>> 7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>>>>>>> 1. Settings
>>>>>>> 2. FOV
>>>>>>> 3. Edit FOV
>>>>>>> 4. Pick camera
>>>>>>> 5. Edit
>>>>>>> 6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>>>>>>> 7. Okay
>>>>>>> 8. Okay
>>>>>>> 9. See results and repeat as needed.
>>>>>>> 10. Yikes!
>>>>>>> 8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, &
>>>>>>> rotation to set up the exposure sequence. It woudl be very helpful to
>>>>>>> quickly jump into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the
>>>>>>> place to develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary
>>>>>>> nebulosity visible but lacks:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with various
>>>>>>> focal lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I really need 2
>>>>>>> monitors...
>>>>>>> 2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list, but
>>>>>>> reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary list
>>>>>>> with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a highly customized
>>>>>>> spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my target by designation
>>>>>>> and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>>>>>>> 3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. Open NINA
>>>>>>> 2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>>>>>>> 3. Select "Framing"
>>>>>>> 4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and
>>>>>>> pick it from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph" to find the elephant
>>>>>>> trunk nebula)
>>>>>>> 5. Select Load Image.
>>>>>>> 1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>>>>>>> 2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>>>>>>> 6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag the
>>>>>>> sky around to properly frame up the shot.
>>>>>>> 7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal length
>>>>>>> I initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page and
>>>>>>> the camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views with
>>>>>>> various compressors and extenders.
>>>>>>> 8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field of
>>>>>>> view. I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>>>>>>> 9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are
>>>>>>> updated so creating a session is reduced to:
>>>>>>> 1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>>>>>>> 2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>>>>>>> 3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>>>>>>> 10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>>>>>>> details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but I
>>>>>>> know even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest
>>>>>>> thing that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the
>>>>>>> need for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
>>>>>>> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
>>>>>>> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
>>>>>>> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
>>>>>>> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
>>>>>>> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
>>>>>>> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
>>>>>>> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
>>>>>>> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
>>>>>>> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential.
>>>>>>> I look forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <
>>>>>>> mutlaqja at ikarustech.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you.
>>>>>>>> Please share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for KStars
>>>>>>>>> and EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I really
>>>>>>>>> want to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device except the
>>>>>>>>> two that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now running
>>>>>>>>> Kubuntu with no regrets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making
>>>>>>>>> the jump for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the
>>>>>>>>> feature set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it
>>>>>>>>> would be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars
>>>>>>>>> and globulars in other galaxies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and
>>>>>>>>> suggest a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items
>>>>>>>>> that might be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev
>>>>>>>>> teams have their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several
>>>>>>>>> friends very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>>>>>>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>>>>>>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>>>>>>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Clear skies,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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