Really tried to use KStars and EKOS

[Mark Casazza]

Hy,

Shift-Ctrl-Alt mosue drag does not work on Intel hardware running Kubuntu
and a standard "Windows" keyboard.

I'm not worried about the screen grab & solve feature. I now know it is
there and will probably use it some day, but I don't see it as a common
need.

Any word on the *manual rotator*? That seems to be my only remaining
blocker (assuming we can figure out the FOV rotation issue).

Mark Casazza
http://casazza.net
Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky


On Fri, Jun 13, 2025 at 10:20 AM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Re the rotation, please note it isn't shift and most drag. Try this:
> hold down shift, then hold down control & alt, then (with all three still
> pressed) drag the mouse and you should see the FOV rotate (as opposed to
> the sky).
> I should make this simpler, but please verify this works for you. I just
> tried it and it worked for me. (On my Mac running an Ubuntu VM, the alt is
> the "Option" button.)
>
> Re the 1 monitor, what I do is initiate the screen grab, then use the
> keyboard to pop-up different windows until the one with the image I want to
> grab comes to the foreground.
> On my Mac/VM/Ubuntu setup, that is using Option-Tab to get the various
> windows to cycle to the top. I do this on my 16" laptop successfully.
> Please give it a try and let me know.
>
> Hy
>
> On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 7:44 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Robert,
>>
>> I assumed there was some feature to turn on the overlay. I found it.
>> Admittedly when in the field with very slow internet it really won't be
>> that helpful. An offline full sky image would be very helpful.
>>
>> Hy,
>>
>> I watched the video and my shift mouse button rotates the sky, not the
>> FOV. And I must say doing the screen capture plate solve on 1 monitor is
>> infuriating. The wrong app kept coming up. I'm no fan of the screen shot
>> plate solve, but I also don't see myself using it.  I do like the rotate
>> with shift and the mouse. I was hoping there was some feature like that.
>> When I click the star icon to pull the location into the scheduler, I get
>> what seems like a nearby location, but not the exact one. I can explore
>> this a bit more. *Any idea why my sky rotates and in the video the FOV
>> rotates?*
>>
>> I would be happy to share my spreadsheet of targets. Even at its size I
>> find myself adding more all the time. It is basically a subset of multiple
>> catalogs with objects big enough that they frame reasonably well with the
>> longest focal length all the way up to mosaics with my shortest focal
>> length. I'll DM you the spreadsheet. I agree many objects don't show off
>> well, but I still enjoy the challenge of those types of targets. (i.e. LBN
>> 543).
>>
>> The remaining miss is the *manual rotator*. I am so looking forward to
>> hearing that my search was insufficient and there is a manual rotator.
>>
>> I am greatly encouraged so far. EKOS is looking better with each reply.
>>
>>
>> Mark Casazza
>> http://casazza.net
>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:04 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we don't
>>> hear back from our users, so appreciate it.  Also, I want to mention out
>>> front that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better, to
>>> actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help you
>>> with that process.
>>>
>>> Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:
>>>
>>>    - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images including
>>>    rotation,
>>>    - You're having issues with catalogs
>>>
>>> *Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and in
>>> fact I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but
>>> likely the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular between
>>> 2:30 and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust rotation
>>> and add it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick process once
>>> you've created your field of view--just search for the object, drag the FOV
>>> to compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse drag. The same
>>> process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner at all, but
>>> rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the skymap. Once
>>> you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the scheduler tab
>>> to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I don't think
>>> there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler, but you could
>>> just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on the skymap at
>>> the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that.  Note--it seems like
>>> there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the video--it
>>> might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just tried it and
>>> holding shift-control-option and then left clicking-and-dragging the mouse
>>> worked for me. If you have issues with that, try to shift first, then the
>>> other keys, I've seen that come up. We can remap that shortcut if need be.
>>> Anyway, please let me know where that technique falls short.
>>>
>>> *The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an
>>> updated catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555
>>> objects, but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's
>>> not the 2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC
>>> and IC catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
>>> online.  Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
>>> Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
>>> described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
>>> perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
>>> imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
>>> even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
>>> this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
>>> which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.
>>>
>>> In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
>>> where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
>>> Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
>>> (Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
>>> Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
>>> that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
>>> images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
>>> images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
>>> If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
>>> license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
>>> know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
>>> catalog.
>>>
>>> Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I think
>>> that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every NGC/IC
>>> item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So, when I
>>> was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and objects
>>> from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
>>> objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
>>> for them?
>>>
>>> *Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's the
>>> Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are target
>>> dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?
>>>
>>> Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know what
>>> you think,
>>> Hy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <rlancaste at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily resolved.
>>>> You said this:
>>>>
>>>> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the Veil
>>>> Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>
>>>> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap?  If you turn that on and
>>>> select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the veil
>>>> and many other targets.  This feature is great for framing and looking at
>>>> how targets will look on your sensor.   Pairing this with the fov rectangle
>>>> for your sensor is a game changer.  I use this feature constantly myself.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> Jasem,
>>>>
>>>> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it work
>>>> for me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my use
>>>> cases.
>>>>
>>>> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till dawn
>>>> at a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with filters.
>>>> Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only image 1, or
>>>> sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera rotation.
>>>> When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong dual band
>>>> filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my simplistic filter
>>>> use I provide the filter changes.
>>>>
>>>> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
>>>> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
>>>> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
>>>> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
>>>> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
>>>> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
>>>> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
>>>> set all is good.
>>>>
>>>> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up
>>>> myself. While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging
>>>> Planner tool both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is
>>>> so click heavy that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA
>>>> I can set the rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating
>>>> when I want to image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the
>>>> optimal camera rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back
>>>> and forth to try various orientations on each object. If each orientation
>>>> took minutes, not seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my
>>>> feedback I woudl love to hear that there is a feature or method that I have
>>>> yet to discover. This is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Open Kstars
>>>>    2. Select Search icon
>>>>    3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph" does
>>>>    not find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet
>>>>    Telephus 1991 KC)
>>>>    4. Select the object from the list
>>>>    5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even
>>>>    the Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>>       1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>>>>       supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>>>>    6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how the
>>>>    object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>>>>    7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>>>>       1. Settings
>>>>       2. FOV
>>>>       3. Edit FOV
>>>>       4. Pick camera
>>>>       5. Edit
>>>>       6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>>>>       7. Okay
>>>>       8. Okay
>>>>       9. See results and repeat as needed.
>>>>       10. Yikes!
>>>>    8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, & rotation
>>>>    to set up the exposure sequence.  It woudl be very helpful to quickly jump
>>>>    into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>>>>
>>>> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the place
>>>> to develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary nebulosity
>>>> visible but lacks:
>>>>
>>>>    1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with various
>>>>    focal lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I really need 2
>>>>    monitors...
>>>>    2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list, but
>>>>    reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary list
>>>>    with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a highly customized
>>>>    spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my target by designation
>>>>    and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>>>>    3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>>>>
>>>> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>>>>
>>>>    1. Open NINA
>>>>    2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>>>>    3. Select "Framing"
>>>>    4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and pick
>>>>    it from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph"  to find the elephant trunk
>>>>    nebula)
>>>>    5. Select Load Image.
>>>>    1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>>>>       2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>>>>    6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag the
>>>>    sky around to properly frame up the shot.
>>>>    7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal length I
>>>>    initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page and the
>>>>    camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views with
>>>>    various compressors and extenders.
>>>>    8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field of
>>>>    view. I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>>>>    9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are updated
>>>>    so creating a session is reduced to:
>>>>       1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>>>>       2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>>>>       3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>>>>       10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>>>>    details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but I
>>>> know even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest
>>>> thing that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the
>>>> need for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
>>>> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
>>>> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
>>>> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
>>>> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
>>>> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
>>>> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
>>>> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
>>>> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
>>>> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>>>>
>>>> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential. I
>>>> look forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>>>>
>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you. Please
>>>>> share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for KStars
>>>>>> and EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I really
>>>>>> want to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device except the
>>>>>> two that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now running
>>>>>> Kubuntu with no regrets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making the
>>>>>> jump for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the
>>>>>> feature set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it
>>>>>> would be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars
>>>>>> and globulars in other galaxies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and
>>>>>> suggest a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items
>>>>>> that might be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev
>>>>>> teams have their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several
>>>>>> friends very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>>>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>>>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>>>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Clear skies,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>>
>>>>>
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