Really tried to use KStars and EKOS

[Hy Murveit]

Mark,

Re the rotation, please note it isn't shift and most drag. Try this:
hold down shift, then hold down control & alt, then (with all three still
pressed) drag the mouse and you should see the FOV rotate (as opposed to
the sky).
I should make this simpler, but please verify this works for you. I just
tried it and it worked for me. (On my Mac running an Ubuntu VM, the alt is
the "Option" button.)

Re the 1 monitor, what I do is initiate the screen grab, then use the
keyboard to pop-up different windows until the one with the image I want to
grab comes to the foreground.
On my Mac/VM/Ubuntu setup, that is using Option-Tab to get the various
windows to cycle to the top. I do this on my 16" laptop successfully.
Please give it a try and let me know.

Hy

On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 7:44 PM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> I assumed there was some feature to turn on the overlay. I found it.
> Admittedly when in the field with very slow internet it really won't be
> that helpful. An offline full sky image would be very helpful.
>
> Hy,
>
> I watched the video and my shift mouse button rotates the sky, not the
> FOV. And I must say doing the screen capture plate solve on 1 monitor is
> infuriating. The wrong app kept coming up. I'm no fan of the screen shot
> plate solve, but I also don't see myself using it.  I do like the rotate
> with shift and the mouse. I was hoping there was some feature like that.
> When I click the star icon to pull the location into the scheduler, I get
> what seems like a nearby location, but not the exact one. I can explore
> this a bit more. *Any idea why my sky rotates and in the video the FOV
> rotates?*
>
> I would be happy to share my spreadsheet of targets. Even at its size I
> find myself adding more all the time. It is basically a subset of multiple
> catalogs with objects big enough that they frame reasonably well with the
> longest focal length all the way up to mosaics with my shortest focal
> length. I'll DM you the spreadsheet. I agree many objects don't show off
> well, but I still enjoy the challenge of those types of targets. (i.e. LBN
> 543).
>
> The remaining miss is the *manual rotator*. I am so looking forward to
> hearing that my search was insufficient and there is a manual rotator.
>
> I am greatly encouraged so far. EKOS is looking better with each reply.
>
>
> Mark Casazza
> http://casazza.net
> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 9:04 PM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we don't
>> hear back from our users, so appreciate it.  Also, I want to mention out
>> front that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better, to
>> actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help you
>> with that process.
>>
>> Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:
>>
>>    - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images including
>>    rotation,
>>    - You're having issues with catalogs
>>
>> *Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and in
>> fact I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but
>> likely the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular between
>> 2:30 and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust rotation
>> and add it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick process once
>> you've created your field of view--just search for the object, drag the FOV
>> to compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse drag. The same
>> process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner at all, but
>> rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the skymap. Once
>> you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the scheduler tab
>> to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I don't think
>> there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler, but you could
>> just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on the skymap at
>> the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that.  Note--it seems like
>> there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the video--it
>> might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just tried it and
>> holding shift-control-option and then left clicking-and-dragging the mouse
>> worked for me. If you have issues with that, try to shift first, then the
>> other keys, I've seen that come up. We can remap that shortcut if need be.
>> Anyway, please let me know where that technique falls short.
>>
>> *The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an
>> updated catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555
>> objects, but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's
>> not the 2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC
>> and IC catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
>> online.  Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
>> Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
>> described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
>> perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
>> imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
>> even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
>> this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
>> which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.
>>
>> In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
>> where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
>> Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
>> (Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
>> Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
>> that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
>> images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
>> images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
>> If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
>> license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
>> know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
>> catalog.
>>
>> Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I think
>> that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every NGC/IC
>> item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So, when I
>> was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and objects
>> from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
>> objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
>> for them?
>>
>> *Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's the
>> Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are target
>> dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?
>>
>> Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know what
>> you think,
>> Hy
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <rlancaste at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily resolved.
>>> You said this:
>>>
>>> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the Veil
>>> Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>
>>> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap?  If you turn that on and
>>> select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the veil
>>> and many other targets.  This feature is great for framing and looking at
>>> how targets will look on your sensor.   Pairing this with the fov rectangle
>>> for your sensor is a game changer.  I use this feature constantly myself.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Jasem,
>>>
>>> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it work
>>> for me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my use
>>> cases.
>>>
>>> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till dawn
>>> at a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with filters.
>>> Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only image 1, or
>>> sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera rotation.
>>> When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong dual band
>>> filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my simplistic filter
>>> use I provide the filter changes.
>>>
>>> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
>>> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
>>> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
>>> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
>>> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
>>> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
>>> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
>>> set all is good.
>>>
>>> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up
>>> myself. While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging
>>> Planner tool both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is
>>> so click heavy that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA
>>> I can set the rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating
>>> when I want to image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the
>>> optimal camera rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back
>>> and forth to try various orientations on each object. If each orientation
>>> took minutes, not seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my
>>> feedback I woudl love to hear that there is a feature or method that I have
>>> yet to discover. This is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>>>
>>>    1. Open Kstars
>>>    2. Select Search icon
>>>    3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph" does not
>>>    find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet Telephus
>>>    1991 KC)
>>>    4. Select the object from the list
>>>    5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even
>>>    the Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>>       1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>>>       supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>>>    6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how the
>>>    object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>>>    7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>>>       1. Settings
>>>       2. FOV
>>>       3. Edit FOV
>>>       4. Pick camera
>>>       5. Edit
>>>       6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>>>       7. Okay
>>>       8. Okay
>>>       9. See results and repeat as needed.
>>>       10. Yikes!
>>>    8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, & rotation
>>>    to set up the exposure sequence.  It woudl be very helpful to quickly jump
>>>    into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>>>
>>> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the place
>>> to develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary nebulosity
>>> visible but lacks:
>>>
>>>    1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with various
>>>    focal lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I really need 2
>>>    monitors...
>>>    2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list, but
>>>    reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary list
>>>    with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a highly customized
>>>    spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my target by designation
>>>    and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>>>    3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>>>
>>> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>>>
>>>    1. Open NINA
>>>    2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>>>    3. Select "Framing"
>>>    4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and pick it
>>>    from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph"  to find the elephant trunk
>>>    nebula)
>>>    5. Select Load Image.
>>>    1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>>>       2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>>>    6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag the sky
>>>    around to properly frame up the shot.
>>>    7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal length I
>>>    initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page and the
>>>    camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views with
>>>    various compressors and extenders.
>>>    8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field of
>>>    view. I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>>>    9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are updated
>>>    so creating a session is reduced to:
>>>       1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>>>       2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>>>       3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>>>       10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>>>    details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>>>
>>> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but I
>>> know even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest
>>> thing that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the
>>> need for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
>>> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
>>> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
>>> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
>>> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
>>> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
>>> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
>>> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
>>> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
>>> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>>>
>>> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential. I
>>> look forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>>>
>>> Mark Casazza
>>> http://casazza.net
>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello Mark,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you. Please
>>>> share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for KStars and
>>>>> EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I really want
>>>>> to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device except the two
>>>>> that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now running Kubuntu
>>>>> with no regrets.
>>>>>
>>>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making the
>>>>> jump for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the
>>>>> feature set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it
>>>>> would be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars
>>>>> and globulars in other galaxies.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and
>>>>> suggest a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items
>>>>> that might be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev
>>>>> teams have their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several
>>>>> friends very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Clear skies,
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>>
>>>>
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