Really tried to use KStars and EKOS
Jasem Mutlaq
mutlaqja at ikarustech.com
Thu Jun 12 05:08:25 BST 2025
Hello Mark,
I think Hy, Akarsh, and Robert already answered almost everything! I'd like
to point out there is a small feature in Mosaic Planner (that you can use
for single images as well in 1x1) where you can adjust the rotation on the
fly. Attached is a video demonstrating this feature. I think we *already*
have a shortcut to rotate the FOV using the Imaging Planner as well. Hy can
confirm.
--
Best Regards,
Jasem Mutlaq
On Thu, Jun 12, 2025 at 4:04 AM Hy Murveit <murveit at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
>
> First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we don't hear
> back from our users, so appreciate it. Also, I want to mention out front
> that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better, to
> actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help you
> with that process.
>
> Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:
>
> - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images including
> rotation,
> - You're having issues with catalogs
>
> *Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and in
> fact I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but
> likely the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular between
> 2:30 and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust rotation
> and add it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick process once
> you've created your field of view--just search for the object, drag the FOV
> to compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse drag. The same
> process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner at all, but
> rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the skymap. Once
> you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the scheduler tab
> to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I don't think
> there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler, but you could
> just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on the skymap at
> the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that. Note--it seems like
> there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the video--it
> might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just tried it and
> holding shift-control-option and then left clicking-and-dragging the mouse
> worked for me. If you have issues with that, try to shift first, then the
> other keys, I've seen that come up. We can remap that shortcut if need be.
> Anyway, please let me know where that technique falls short.
>
> *The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an updated
> catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555 objects,
> but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's not the
> 2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC and IC
> catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
> online. Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
> Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
> described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
> perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
> imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
> even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
> this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
> which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.
>
> In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
> where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
> Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
> (Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
> Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
> that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
> images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
> images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
> If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
> license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
> know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
> catalog.
>
> Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I think
> that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every NGC/IC
> item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So, when I
> was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and objects
> from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
> objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
> for them?
>
> *Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's the
> Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are target
> dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?
>
> Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know what
> you think,
> Hy
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <rlancaste at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily resolved.
>> You said this:
>>
>> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the Veil
>> Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>>
>> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap? If you turn that on and
>> select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the veil
>> and many other targets. This feature is great for framing and looking at
>> how targets will look on your sensor. Pairing this with the fov rectangle
>> for your sensor is a game changer. I use this feature constantly myself.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Rob
>>
>> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Jasem,
>>
>> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it work
>> for me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my use
>> cases.
>>
>> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till dawn at
>> a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with filters.
>> Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only image 1, or
>> sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera rotation.
>> When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong dual band
>> filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my simplistic filter
>> use I provide the filter changes.
>>
>> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
>> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
>> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
>> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
>> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
>> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
>> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
>> set all is good.
>>
>> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up myself.
>> While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging Planner tool
>> both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is so click heavy
>> that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA I can set the
>> rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating when I want to
>> image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the optimal camera
>> rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back and forth to try
>> various orientations on each object. If each orientation took minutes, not
>> seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my feedback I woudl love
>> to hear that there is a feature or method that I have yet to discover. This
>> is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>>
>> 1. Open Kstars
>> 2. Select Search icon
>> 3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph" does not
>> find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet Telephus
>> 1991 KC)
>> 4. Select the object from the list
>> 5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the
>> Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>> 1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>> supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>> 6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how the
>> object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>> 7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>> 1. Settings
>> 2. FOV
>> 3. Edit FOV
>> 4. Pick camera
>> 5. Edit
>> 6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>> 7. Okay
>> 8. Okay
>> 9. See results and repeat as needed.
>> 10. Yikes!
>> 8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, & rotation
>> to set up the exposure sequence. It woudl be very helpful to quickly jump
>> into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>>
>> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the place to
>> develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary nebulosity
>> visible but lacks:
>>
>> 1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with various
>> focal lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I really need 2
>> monitors...
>> 2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list, but
>> reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary list
>> with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a highly customized
>> spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my target by designation
>> and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>> 3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>>
>> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>>
>> 1. Open NINA
>> 2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>> 3. Select "Framing"
>> 4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and pick it
>> from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph" to find the elephant trunk
>> nebula)
>> 5. Select Load Image.
>> 1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>> 2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>> 6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag the sky
>> around to properly frame up the shot.
>> 7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal length I
>> initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page and the
>> camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views with
>> various compressors and extenders.
>> 8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field of
>> view. I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>> 9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are updated
>> so creating a session is reduced to:
>> 1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>> 2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>> 3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>> 10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>> details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>>
>> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but I know
>> even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest thing
>> that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the need
>> for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
>> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
>> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
>> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
>> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
>> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
>> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
>> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
>> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
>> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>>
>> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential. I
>> look forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>>
>> Mark Casazza
>> http://casazza.net
>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Mark,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you. Please
>>> share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best Regards,
>>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for KStars and
>>>> EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I really want
>>>> to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device except the two
>>>> that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now running Kubuntu
>>>> with no regrets.
>>>>
>>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making the
>>>> jump for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the
>>>> feature set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it
>>>> would be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars
>>>> and globulars in other galaxies.
>>>>
>>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and suggest
>>>> a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items that might
>>>> be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev teams have
>>>> their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>>
>>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several friends
>>>> very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>>
>>>> Clear skies,
>>>>
>>>> Mark Casazza
>>>> http://casazza.net
>>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>>
>>>
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