Really tried to use KStars and EKOS

[Hy Murveit]

Mark,

First off, thanks again for your feedback. We can't learn if we don't hear
back from our users, so appreciate it.  Also, I want to mention out front
that you're welcome to make very specific suggestions or, better, to
actually send in merge requests. I'd be happy to work with you to help you
with that process.

Now to address your specific concerns, which seem to me to be:

   - You're looking for an efficient way to compose images including
   rotation,
   - You're having issues with catalogs

*Composition*: I agree that composition needed to be improved, and in fact
I made some steps to improve what was there in the past year, but likely
the job is not done. However, please take a look at this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-_xM8gZpM0 and in particular between 2:30
and 4:00 I discuss how you might compose images and adjust rotation and add
it to the scheduler. I think it's a reasonably quick process once you've
created your field of view--just search for the object, drag the FOV to
compose, and rotate with a keyboard shortcut and mouse drag. The same
process would work if you weren't using the Imaging Planner at all, but
rather just looking at HIPS overlays or other imagery on the skymap. Once
you're happy with a composition, you can use a button on the scheduler tab
to copy the skymap's center coordinates to the scheduler. I don't think
there's any way to copy the rotation angle to the scheduler, but you could
just type that in (the necessary rotation value is drawn on the skymap at
the tip of the arrow) and, sure, we can add that.  Note--it seems like
there may be an issue with the keyboard command I mention in the video--it
might have changed from the time I recorded that video. I just tried it and
holding shift-control-option and then left clicking-and-dragging the mouse
worked for me. If you have issues with that, try to shift first, then the
other keys, I've seen that come up. We can remap that shortcut if need be.
Anyway, please let me know where that technique falls short.

*The ImagingPlanner's catalog*: You should be able to download an updated
catalog from Data -> DownloadNewData. My original catalog had 555  objects,
but I updated it in the Spring to 770. Still, of course, that's not the
2000 you want. Here are things to consider. The full Messier, NGC and IC
catalogs are available to you in KStars -- "Find" looks them up
online.  Many other designations as well. That won't work with the Imaging
Planner, but it would allow you to center the skymap and compose as I've
described above. This should get you the coordinate you desire, though
perhaps not much imagery. However, as Rob mentioned, if you use the HIPS
imagery (see the View menu) then you'd get the full DSS imagery. You can
even download a local copy of DSS and get much quicker rendering. However,
this DSS imagery is nothing like a pretty Astrobin picture of a target,
which is one of the reasons I put together the Imaging Planner.

In my design of the Imaging Planner, I chose to support only objects
where I could display a pretty picture. I got those nice images from
Astrobin, using only images the authors had given appropriate permission
(Attribution Creative Commons, either just that, or including
Non-Commercial and/or Share-Alike). The reason I was limited to ~770 was
that there were many objects I wanted to show but at the time I didn't find
images that had appropriate permissions. Of course, there are probably more
images out there now, and that's just searching work that needs to be done.
If you have a source for object images that have that kind of sharing
license (i.e. either yours, or others' that you know of) please let me
know, or I can show you how to put together a supplemental Imaging Planner
catalog.

Also, even if nice images were available for all NGC/IC objects, I think
that it is probably best not to include (at least by default) every NGC/IC
item as that would probably bury the "more desirable" objects. So, when I
was looking, I certainly ordered my search by popular objects and objects
from successful imagers. Still, I'm sure there's room for many more
objects--why not your curated list of 2000 objects if we can find images
for them?

*Scheduler template* I think we effectively have this already, it's the
Sequence (.esq) file you can load from a menu. The other things are target
dependent (name, coordinates, rotation). What am I missing?

Hopefully that'll get the conversation started. Please let me know what you
think,
Hy


On Wed, Jun 11, 2025 at 11:53 AM Robert Lancaster <rlancaste at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> Great feedback, I note one item on your list might be easily resolved.
> You said this:
>
> The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the Veil
> Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>
> Did you try the hips overlay on the skymap?  If you turn that on and
> select “DSS Colored” you will get a great deal of nebulosity for the veil
> and many other targets.  This feature is great for framing and looking at
> how targets will look on your sensor.   Pairing this with the fov rectangle
> for your sensor is a game changer.  I use this feature constantly myself.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Rob
>
> On Jun 11, 2025, at 2:35 PM, Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 
> Jasem,
>
> Let me start with EKOS as I spent the most time trying to make it work for
> me. And before I get into application details, let me describe my use cases.
>
> I generally image 1, or at most 2, objects a night from dusk till dawn at
> a borderline Bortle 2-1 site. As a result, I do not bother with filters.
> Camera orientation is very important to me, and because I only image 1, or
> sometimes 2, objects in a given night I can provide the camera rotation.
> When I do image from my home, a bortle 5 location, I use a strong dual band
> filter and image with and without the filter. Due to my simplistic filter
> use I provide the filter changes.
>
> I did not dig deep into filters in my exploration of EKOS, because
> rotation alone was a deal killer. I was unable to find "manual rotator"
> where the UI prompts the user to rotate the camera a number of degrees in a
> given direction. NINA provides this and during the plate solving process
> first establishes proper rotation, then sky location. I am able to provide
> a tolerance (I use 5 degrees) and a number of iterations before a failed
> rotation (I use 5 again). This process only occurs once per night and once
> set all is good.
>
> But before I can go out and image an object I need to frame it up myself.
> While EKOS has a way to set framing in KStars and an Imaging Planner tool
> both fall short in this area. The process to set rotation is so click heavy
> that I gave up on my first attempt after 15 minutes. In NINA I can set the
> rotation in a few seconds. This speed becomes devastating when I want to
> image 2 objects in the same night and I need to find the optimal camera
> rotation for both objects. This requires quite a bit back and forth to try
> various orientations on each object. If each orientation took minutes, not
> seconds, this could take many hours. As with all my feedback I woudl love
> to hear that there is a feature or method that I have yet to discover. This
> is how I tried the framing process in EKOS:
>
>    1. Open Kstars
>    2. Select Search icon
>    3. Type in target object name or designation. (Note "eleph" does not
>    find the Elephant Trunk Nebula, but instead only offers the comet Telephus
>    1991 KC)
>    4. Select the object from the list
>    5. The area of the sky is displayed, but minimal nebulosity; even the
>    Veil Nebula is only shown as a quadrilateral.
>       1. This is a show stopper, but I assume there is some way to
>       supplement the data to get better images displayed.
>    6. I have already set my camera(s) up as FOVs so I can see how the
>    object fits each potential focal length. This is better than NINA!
>    7. To rotate the frame I need to:
>       1. Settings
>       2. FOV
>       3. Edit FOV
>       4. Pick camera
>       5. Edit
>       6. Change rotation value but providing a new number.
>       7. Okay
>       8. Okay
>       9. See results and repeat as needed.
>       10. Yikes!
>    8. Once I get a good framing I need to note the RA, Dec, & rotation to
>    set up the exposure sequence.  It woudl be very helpful to quickly jump
>    into EKOS with a framed object and add it to a schedule.
>
> I tried to use the Imaging Planner as well. This is probably the place to
> develop the features I'm seeking. This tool has the necessary nebulosity
> visible but lacks:
>
>    1. The ability to see the image in my camera's FOV (with various focal
>    lengths) unless I select "Center on SkyMap", but then I really need 2
>    monitors...
>    2. A robust target list. I wish 555 targets was a good list, but
>    reality is I work with a list of 1,780 possible targets in my primary list
>    with the full NGC/IC and other catalogs a tab away in a highly customized
>    spreadsheet. Only occasionally does NINA not have my target by designation
>    and I have to enter RA & Dec.
>    3. Any obvious way to quickly get an object into a schedule.
>
> In contrast with NINA the process is:
>
>    1. Open NINA
>    2. Select profile (location, telescope, camera)
>    3. Select "Framing"
>    4. Type in the name or designation of the desired target and pick it
>    from an auto-populated list. (i.e., "eleph"  to find the elephant trunk
>    nebula)
>    5. Select Load Image.
>    1. This could download the sky from various Internet resources
>       2. I prefer to use the offline Sky Map for quick response.
>    6. I can now use the mouse wheel to zoom in and out and drag the sky
>    around to properly frame up the shot.
>    7. If I find the object is too big or small for the focal length I
>    initially selected I can adjust the focal length value on the page and the
>    camera's field of view will be updated. This allows quick views with
>    various compressors and extenders.
>    8. There is a "Rotation" slider that rotates the camera field of view.
>    I can rotate as needed. (This feature is what EKOS really needs.)
>    9. With all the above changes the RA, Dec, and rotation are updated so
>    creating a session is reduced to:
>       1. Selecting "Add Target to Sequency"
>       2. Select "Legacy Sequencer" or "Sequencer"
>       3. Selecting the prebuilt template to apply.
>       10. At this point I can go into the sequence and add all the
>    details like # images, duration of images, start and stop time, etc.
>
> Regarding filters, as I stated I have not gone deep with EKOS, but I know
> even NINA falls short of what I think are essentials. The biggest thing
> that I have discovered when using strong narrow band filters is the need
> for a very different exposure setting for both auto focus and plate
> solving. I ask NINA to plate solve every 3rd image to make sure nothing
> traumatic has happened to greatly move the mount away from the object. I
> have not dug deep enough into EKOS to know if you have a simular
> capability. But I did see the ability to auto focus throughout the night
> and that will drive those longer duration and higher gain exposures. Also,
> the polar alignment process uses plate solving and can become a time killer
> if you cannot use gain to allow for short exposures and quick feedback as
> you make adjustments. Again, I have not had EKOS out under dark skies
> because I got stopped with the rotation issues.
>
> All this said, the product is impressive and I see great potential. I look
> forward to the day I can get off Windows altogether.
>
> Mark Casazza
> http://casazza.net
> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 12:31 AM Jasem Mutlaq <mutlaqja at ikarustech.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello Mark,
>>
>> Thank you for your email and we'd love to hear more from you. Please
>> share your experience and what it is that you miss in KStars/Ekos.
>>
>> --
>> Best Regards,
>> Jasem Mutlaq
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2025 at 7:23 AM Mark Casazza <markcasazza at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As a fellow software developer I want to offer feedback for KStars and
>>> EKOS as replacements for my Windows tools (SkyTools & NINA). I really want
>>> to get off Windows and I've managed to convert every device except the two
>>> that control telescopes. That is six of eight computers now running Kubuntu
>>> with no regrets.
>>>
>>> The EKOS / NINA feature gap is too wide to even consider making the jump
>>> for imaging. KStars with Observation Manager seems closer to the feature
>>> set I need for visual observing with a 20" truss tube scope, but it would
>>> be a major investment in catalog population for objects like quasars and
>>> globulars in other galaxies.
>>>
>>> I would be happy to share the details of my A/B comparisons and suggest
>>> a few "easy" wins that could really help along with bigger items that might
>>> be worth including in your roadmap. I fully appreciate that dev teams have
>>> their plans and priorities so I will wait to hear back from you.
>>>
>>> I fully respect the great work you have done and I have several friends
>>> very happy with their Linux telescope control and image acquisition
>>> solution. I even recommend it whenever I find someone open to a Linux
>>> approach. I admit that I am spoiled and a power user. There are features I
>>> would be lost without that seem to be missing.
>>>
>>> Clear skies,
>>>
>>> Mark Casazza
>>> http://casazza.net
>>> Home of the Clear Sky Alarm Clock and Tonight's Sky
>>>
>>
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