WOW. . .those screenshots of 3.1Alpha are fantastic

Terry lawnman59 at
Fri Jul 12 22:19:25 BST 2002

Like you had nothing better to do today, eh Dre?  I agree mostly with your
perception and viewpoints.  But in terms of the rapid development cycle of
Konqueror and KDE in general, let's not forget the toolkit that makes this
possible. Major kudo's to Trolltech and their QT toolkit.  Since I am the
originator of this thread I apologize it has turned into an overly critical
assesment of KDE.  I really just wanted to share the cool looking pics. Go

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Pour" <pour at>
To: <kde at>
Cc: "KDE Cafe" <kde-cafe at>
Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [kde] WOW. . .those screenshots of 3.1Alpha are fantastic

> daniel wrote:
> >
> > | Because it's easier to write something like that from scratch, than to
> > | port it from a different set of libraries, data strunctures and
> > | languages.
> >
> > oic
> > like i said, i'm still a newbie and from my end it looked pretty
> > i get it now though.  i would then like to throw in my two cents on
> > side and suggest that more focus be put on stability rather than
> > a pretty file manager that explodes repeatedly, while remaining quite
> > attractive is still more frustrating that a not-so-pretty file manager
> > never blows up.
> Hi,
> At the risk of waxing sentimental, I will, here and now, share with you
> my perspective on what is happening.  To give some perspective, indulge
> me, please, while I present a few statistics.  It does not matter,
> whether these are completely right, you may think them somewhat
> different, but the general outline, I think, is a solid one.
> Let me also begin, by noting, I choose here to focus on one group of
> developers, but there are many others, within KDE and without, about
> whom I could say the same, though, of course, I do not know them all as
> well.  This, in a way, is my heartfelt homage, or tribute, to the KDE
> developer.
> During the MS trial, MS claimed that it spends $100 million per year on
> Internet Explorer (see, e.g.,
>, PP 389.1.ii.  This would
> represent roughly 1,000 full-time developers.
> I don't recall how much Netscape poured into Mozilla, but the project
> reportedly had thousands of developers working on it for 4 years.
> Konqueror, on the other hand, was started (from scratch, essentially)
> after KDE 1, 2.5 years ago, has about 20 developers (more than at times
> in the past), of whom maybe 5 concentrate on it, but none of whom really
> works full-time on it.  So let me chalk that up to 10 full-time
> developers.
> Of course, Mozilla of all the projects is the most ambitious, but still,
> we are comparing about 4,000 man-years on either Mozilla and MSIE in the
> last 4 years versus maybe 25 man-years on Konqueror in the last 2.5
> years.
> 4,000 to 25.  Yes, it's amazing, isn't it?
> In light of this reality check, to me, it is absolutely incredible,
> unbelievable, everything that Konqueror can do.  I think there is no
> conclusion which one can reach but that its developers are exceptionally
> and tremendously talented, capable and motivated.
> On top of that, I know many of them personally, and have known them over
> the course of years, and I can say without qualification, that each of
> them is an extremely decent, moral, responsible, likable person, who
> cares very much about what he creates, perhaps too much, who shows great
> respect for others, who displays an incredulous patience I could not
> find within me to muster, and who harbors a sincere desire to address
> the needs of the community of which he feels a part.
> But, alas, there is only a handful of them.  And a browser, it can only
> be said, is an extremely complex piece of software.
> Yet, not all of us appreciate that.  Indeed, I see it, time and again,
> in the last few weeks mounting to a drowning chorus of discontent,
> almost, the vogue sport of the day.
> While one group is yelling at them to fix bugs, another is yelling at
> them to add a new feature.  Somebody wants secure Java, another SSL
> certificate management, a third complex JavaScript menus, a fourth XML
> editing, a fifth UTF-8 URLs, a sixth Netscape plugin support, a seventh
> and eighth, that it work flawlessly with sites designed to be IE-only, a
> ninth another style sheet property.  Indeed, every time something that
> doesn't work in Konqueror, but which works in both or just one of the
> 4,000 man-year browsers, whether it is part of the web standards they
> try to implement or not, they get an earful:  if it doesn't work, it's a
> bug.
> What is a bug, and what is a feature request?  Do we really know?  Are
> we qualified ot tell?  I think, for most of us, if any website does not
> work, the way it does in another browser, we conclude it is a Konqueror
> bug - but in reality, most of the time, it requires a new feature be
> added to support these websites.
> Yet another group yells, they should *backport* all these changes to 3,
> 4 different branches, maybe even back to KDE 1, which would require them
> not only to backport their changes, but may also require backporting a
> host of changes in Qt, in kdelibs and in a host other tools they rely
> upon, which have, in the interim, improved and which, in the end, would
> turn the old branch, into the current one.
> But how can we, any of us, rightfully demand more of them, when they
> already give more than any of us could or would?  Because they don't
> give it, in exactly the priority we would prefer?  Because sometimes,
> they listen to another's wishes, before ours, or, heaven forbid, they
> take some time to work on things that actually bring them
> self-fulfilment in what, after all, they are doing as a labor of love,
> in their free time?
> Who are we, to so vocally, loudly, and yes, sometimes even meanly,
> criticize, condemn and attack these remarkable individuals, as I have
> seen time and again and time and again, from news sites to mailing lists
> to forums, the very forums and mailing lists set up by these
> individuals, so we can have a voice and participate in what they create
> for us?
> And, yes, it sometimes makes me sad, b/c they do so much, and such great
> quality work, and all of that is met now with this deafening chorus of
> dissatisfaction, complaints, and demands for more, b/c their Herculean
> efforts do not satisfy those, who contribute - what exactly?
> Where are the contributions on the donations page, so KDE can afford to
> hire some developers, to help take the strain and improve KDE faster?
> Where are the volunteers, who help with the tedious task - a task no
> developer enjoys any more than us - of trudging through the bugs
> database, thousands of entries, to find a report that is useful and
> specific and reproduceable so it can be fixed?  Where are the ones, who
> get angry, yes, angry, that there is not more documentation, not more
> tutorials, when these are things, that any of us can also provide, and,
> in many cases, because of native languages, we could do much better?
> Why is it, that those who do the most, are the ones, who must do it all?
> So yes, at times I do get angry and disparaged, I get angry b/c I see my
> friends and colleagues getting reams of negative stories written about
> them, when their contributions should, at a minimum, receive
> appreciation; but when, really, their contributions to our commuity, our
> society, our world, to our very freedom and liberty, which hang so
> perilously in the balance, are so magnificent.  KDE has given me a way
> out, has given me something I cherish daily, its hiccups here and there
> and all.
> In short, I see injustice, and I want to see it stop, but I do not know
> how to stop it.  I do not know how to make us see, how unfair we are
> being, to make us see, that if we make life ever more uncomfortable for
> those who do all these great things for us, it is far more likely that
> they will depart in disgust than work even harder - as working even
> hard, is something, which just is not possible.  Each already does the
> work of 20.  But we demand more, and we demand it, now, and in return,
> we offer nothing but to take advantage of what they have done.
> A voluntary community, to survive, must be one, that the members enjoy
> to work in.  That they receive some satisfaction, from the energy they
> contribute.  Can we not see, how all this criticism is draining,
> despirting, demotivating.  How it weakens us, how we weaken ourselves,
> and strengthen those, who would take our liberty and our freedom, who
> would live in mansions and frolic in exotic paradises and not even hear
> your bitter dissatisfaction with how much worse it all has become.
> And when I try to write, perhaps not as patiently as I should, to
> explain what we are doing, I am met with curses, with accusations, that
> it is I, that am rude, it is I, that is out of line, it is I, who does
> not understand, it is I, who has nothing nice to say.
> And then sometimes I, too, wonder, why *do* I bother?
> Yours,
> Dre
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