[Kde-games-devel] IRC meeting log
Paolo Capriotti
p.capriotti at gmail.com
Mon Apr 2 21:46:39 CEST 2007
Here's the log of the yesterday meeting:
[21:55:51] <piacentini> Hi, everyone, should we start?
[21:56:17] <marktaff> Hello all, let's start
[21:56:49] <piacentini> Those of you who are really here (and not
logging) please introduce yourself briefly, so we can begin!
[21:56:58] <johann_ol> hi everybody
[21:56:58] <piacentini> Mauricio Piacentini, maintainer of KMahjongg
and KMines for KDE4
[21:57:10] <hrafnahnef> Hrahnahnef, the Bovo guy
[21:57:24] <pcapriotti> Paolo Capriotti, working on KBattleship
[21:57:41] <marktaff> Mark Taff, KGameSvgDocument, KMines oxygen
theme, and KGameLCD's replacement
[21:57:54] <nicolas030> Nicolas Roffet, working on KBlackBox (and
starting to look at KSirtet) :)
[21:58:34] <piacentini> OK, so let us begin
[21:58:47] <johann_ol> Johann Ollivier Lapeyre, Artwork maintainer and
apprentice's release manager
[21:58:48] <piacentini> agenda at
http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=KDE%20Games%20IRC%20meeting
[21:59:16] <milliams> Matt Williams, maintainer of KSquares
[21:59:21] <piacentini> I believe we have the usual SVG and
maintainers topics, but the big issue to discuss is the release
schedule, right?
[21:59:46] <piacentini> Johann, do you want to talk about it?
[22:00:38] <johann_ol> first, is everyone saw/is aware the release calendar?
[22:01:00] <nicolas030> yes
[22:01:01] <piacentini> is there a url for reference?
[22:01:04] <johann_ol> http://dot.kde.org/1174481326/
[22:01:11] Join it-s has joined this channel
(n=it-s at CPE000f3d5a3979-CM0011aec7a8c6.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com).
[22:01:32] <UnionPivo> good afternoon
[22:02:09] <it-s> Hi everyone.
[22:02:19] <UnionPivo> Luka Marinko, working on KSnake
[22:02:27] <marktaff>
http://techbase.kde.org/Schedules/KDE4/4.0_Release_Schedule links to
the techbase detailed release schedule
[22:02:36] <johann_ol> thanks marktaff
[22:02:37] <piacentini> johann_ol: if i read correctly, then our
final date is June 1st
[22:02:50] <piacentini> After that, only bug fixing, artwork retouching
[22:03:26] <Silveira_Neto> Silveira Neto, maintainer of nothing but
working in KTron.
[22:03:29] <marktaff> johann_ol: yw
[22:03:34] <johann_ol> i negociate that SVG porting (c++) is alowed too
[22:03:45] <johann_ol> negociateD
[22:04:07] <piacentini> johann_ol: yes, but I advocate that we should
decide which games will be in the module and which will not before
this date
[22:04:13] <marktaff> Then when is svg porting closed?
[22:04:20] <johann_ol> but yes, 1st june is the limit for new features
[22:05:12] <johann_ol> marktaff: SVG porting is alowed after 1st june
[22:06:09] <marktaff> johann_ol: k, but when are we to stop svg
porting for 4.0?
[22:06:13] <piacentini> johann_ol: on your email to kde-games-devel
you mentioned a proposal to finally review the state of applications
in the next 15 days?
[22:06:23] <piacentini> I think it is time to do this
[22:06:37] <piacentini> using the review team we agreed on back in November.
[22:06:41] <johann_ol> piacentini: yes, we should decide before 1st
june which game to keep/add/remove. But of course, if a game is not
ready, we can remove one just before the final release
[22:07:09] <piacentini> Of course, this does not mean that people can
not continue working/start working on unmantained apps
[22:07:25] <piacentini> It is just that they should not be part of
the beta releases, until they are ready
[22:07:59] <nicolas030> Proposition: Games that would not make it for
KDE 4 should be moved in playground to have a chance for KDE 4.1 or
KDE 4.2.
[22:08:08] <johann_ol> piacentini: yes, review the game the next
15days, and start the move them. I'm not sure about the "final'
[22:08:16] <nicolas030> (I mean not ready for KDE 4.0)
[22:08:26] <UnionPivo> nicolas030, only those that are activly worked
on should go to playground
[22:08:30] <piacentini> nicolas030: coolo also proposed something
like this on the irc channel last week
[22:08:38] <UnionPivo> others should go to unmaintained/4
[22:08:39] <nicolas030> OK
[22:08:50] <piacentini> There is the need to decide which ones would
go to playground, and which will go to unmaintained
[22:09:13] <UnionPivo> well i just started working on ksnake, but i
don't have svn account jet
[22:09:15] <piacentini> This is something the review team can do,
based on the feedback of the last survey, and the current state of the
games
[22:09:31] <tsdgeos> UnionPivo: just ask for it
[22:09:35] <tsdgeos> hi all btw
[22:10:02] <marktaff> tsdgeos: hi!
[22:10:05] <piacentini> UnionPivo: this is a typical case, just as an
example. I would say that it should probably move to playground, where
you will be free to work on it and bring it to the level desired for
KDE4.
[22:10:33] <UnionPivo> piacentini, i agree , I just hope you wont mind
me bugging you for help :))
[22:10:41] <piacentini> No, not at all :)
[22:11:08] <piacentini> This is basically so we can have in the betas
a sample of the games that are following what we expect of KDE games
for KDE4
[22:11:15] <marktaff> I submit that we should have certain standards
for games that make it into kdegames: apidox, svg, themes, docs,..???
[22:11:19] <piacentini> Just my opinion, btw
[22:11:24] <piacentini> marktaff: we have this
[22:11:28] <piacentini> let me dig the URL
[22:11:28] <marktaff> k
[22:11:29] <johann_ol> i'm agree with piacentini about ksnake. A typical example
[22:11:40] <hrafnahnef> Will the review team review the games
allready in playground, as well?
[22:11:40] <piacentini> it is important, as we have lots of new guys
[22:11:43] <tsdgeos> ok, so if June 1st is frozen for new features, 17
May is last day for games to move to review, so they can have the 15
day review and decide if go oor not?
[22:11:56] <johann_ol> hrafnahnef: i think we should
[22:12:31] <piacentini> guidelines are roughly 3/4 down on the irc
meeting summary at
http://maupiacentini.blogspot.com/2006/11/first-kdegames-monthly-irc-meeting.html
[22:12:31] <UnionPivo> it would be nice to have sets of do's and
don'ts for geting game into release
[22:12:57] <UnionPivo> from code quolity to basic content
[22:13:04] <piacentini> tsdgeos: I would say it should be earlier
[22:13:08] <piacentini> like in 3 weeks
[22:13:17] <piacentini> but it is up to you guys in the review team :)
[22:13:30] <tsdgeos> well, let's move up to may 10, then?
[22:13:33] <UnionPivo> dang my spelling
[22:13:43] <piacentini> tsdgeos: k
[22:14:24] <piacentini> Main point could be, if johann_ol agrees: by
June 1st we want only KDE4-ready apps in kdegames
[22:14:30] <piacentini> So people could really do beta
[22:14:46] <marktaff> I agree with piacentini
[22:14:51] <nicolas030> OK
[22:14:52] <tsdgeos> i agree, june 1st kdegames should have ready or
"few work to be ready" apps
[22:15:00] <johann_ol> i'd like to do a 1st round on review the next
15 days, and move unmaintained game to playground, and good enought
playground games to kdegames. But not a definitive decision. And do a
final review before 1st june
[22:15:01] <Silveira_Neto> sounds good.
[22:15:13] <piacentini> johann_ol: supported
[22:15:20] <marktaff> agreed
[22:15:37] <piacentini> We must however communicate clearly that we
are not definately killing any game
[22:15:58] <tsdgeos> of course, they are "just" moved out of kde main module
[22:16:03] <piacentini> If people want to rescue them, they will be
in SVN, ready for revision
[22:16:07] <UnionPivo> I was just watching some demos about Beryl and
Combiz, if KDE4 will have similar capabilities, will there be any
games utilizing that ?
[22:16:11] <tsdgeos> anyone can still work on it, package it, release
it, whatever
[22:16:19] <pinotree> may what we missed here was to "announce"
[22:16:21] <johann_ol> yes of course. This is why i prefer move to
playground than move to "unmaintained".
[22:16:26] <UnionPivo> simple four in a row, using transperancy and owerlays
[22:17:02] <pinotree> ie, a news on the dot saying "games X Y and Z
are unaintained, any volunteer to rescue them?"
[22:17:03] <piacentini> UnionPivo: this is already possible with QGV
and Arthur in KDE4
[22:17:08] <tsdgeos> UnionPivo: that's ortogonal to the window
manager, i mean you can do transparency and overlays without special
support in the window manager
[22:17:12] <pinotree> imho that should have been done a apir of
months ago, now that i think better
[22:17:21] <piacentini> pinotree: I agree. However, this should imo
do not take precedence over the work we are doing
[22:17:31] <piacentini> Meaning: we should focus on communication of
what is happening
[22:17:45] <piacentini> Not what could have been... after all we
recruited maintainers since November :)
[22:17:49] <pinotree> sure, but doing that would not harm the current work
[22:18:19] <pinotree> sure, but how many people kow the state of
atlantik in kdegames4?
[22:18:22] <piacentini> And the dot comments are sooooo negative
sometimes... But I agree, post a note, telling about our freeze, new
apps, and move of older ones
[22:18:23] <pinotree> (as example)
[22:18:39] <piacentini> pinotree: I agree, but in 6 months (or 20
months) no one cared
[22:18:41] <marktaff> I think there is still time for a currently
unmaintained game to be ported in time for KDE 4.0, so a last shout
out for maintainers might be good....
[22:18:56] <pinotree> marktaff: of course, nothing is lost yet
[22:18:58] <UnionPivo> marktaff, I agree
[22:19:09] <pinotree> but, hurry up! :)
[22:19:14] <piacentini> K, who can post this?
[22:19:21] <piacentini> My feed was cut from planet last week
[22:19:23] * pinotree sucks at PR
[22:19:41] <tsdgeos> well, as someone said, don't show you as
desperate if you want to atract new developers, developers don't want
to join a ship that is sinking
[22:20:00] <UnionPivo> maybe we should get a few screenshots of
new/development games to wow people ?
[22:20:01] <pinotree> sure, i'm npt showing that as desperate
[22:20:03] <piacentini> tsdgeos: we should probably add this info in
the middle of our announcement of the dates for freeze
[22:20:19] <marktaff> Can we arrange to a dot article comparing old
katomic to new one, and include the call for maintainers in that?
[22:20:26] <Silveira_Neto> UnionPivo, is a good idea.
[22:20:35] <pinotree> just saying that "do you want to see the game X
in kde4? join us and resurrect it! :)"
[22:21:04] <johann_ol> yes. i prefer to wait the release team review
in 15 days, and make a general (positive) release press, where we are
going.... and which game are moving to playground because unmaintained
;)
[22:21:04] <piacentini> this has been done in the past couple of months, btw
[22:21:20] <piacentini> See johann's blog http://johann.pwsp.net/ ,
my blog, albert
[22:21:33] <piacentini> for screenshots and news about the games that
were being converted
[22:22:25] <piacentini> Just to clarify, I am not against any or it
per se. It is just that we have been in this task or getting
maintainers and trying to save games for the past 6 months. It is time
to join the release team boat and get out of tinkering mode
[22:22:31] <UnionPivo> piacentini, well i have kde4 compiled so i can
check it out myself, I meant for dot article
[22:22:46] <UnionPivo> not everyone there will bother compiling kde4
[22:22:56] <johann_ol> especially because piacentini blog and mine are
on planetkde. And this way, we found several maintainer
[22:23:27] <piacentini> so we have the plan of a quick review in 15
days, and then announce the results and a new call for maintainers at
the same time?
[22:23:40] <piacentini> So people will still have one month (before
May 15) to port?
[22:23:48] <marktaff> piacentini: works for me.
[22:23:49] * hrafnahnef agrees with piacentini
[22:23:50] <johann_ol> fine for me
[22:24:03] <Silveira_Neto> me 2
[22:24:03] <it-s> Sorry to interrupt, as I'm farely new here, but
don't we already have a good set of working titles? Why can't we
continue perfecting what we already have and if anyone
wants/needs/likes any other game they can take source, mod it and
release as a seprate project.
[22:24:54] <it-s> There is no good in quantity if quality suffers.
[22:24:54] <piacentini> it-s: sure, it will still be possible. We are
just trying to cut the ones that are currently broken, move them away
a bit so people can see the work done on the others, and give beta
feedback on that.
[22:25:16] <piacentini> So yes, we are going for quality for the beta release
[22:25:30] <UnionPivo> it-s, there is time from june till october 23
to polish the games
[22:25:38] <it-s> That's waht I mean. Move them out of the way so we
can concentrate on what we have.
[22:25:47] <piacentini> That is the plan
[22:25:54] <johann_ol> yes
[22:26:02] <it-s> Ok, sorry, I didn't cach that :)
[22:26:11] <it-s> Back to my corner now.
[22:26:28] <piacentini> btw, it-s, great work on the backgrounds so far
[22:26:36] <piacentini> for those who missed him in the last meeting
[22:26:49] <piacentini> it-s is the guy that is drawing some
backgrounds for the games
[22:26:57] <it-s> Tahnk you *blush*
[22:26:58] <johann_ol> yes, it-s is really doing a nice job :)
[22:26:58] <UnionPivo> well as far as I am concerned someone with svn
account can move ksnake to playground today, will feel a lot better,
before messing with it :)
[22:26:59] <tsdgeos> it-s: welcome and good work :-)
[22:27:13] <piacentini> like the new kmahjongg/kshisen background at
http://maupiacentini.blogspot.com/2007/03/shisen-sho-updates.html
[22:27:37] <pcapriotti> it-s: you're the one who made the kbattleship
background?
[22:27:56] <johann_ol> yes he is
[22:27:58] <it-s> Yes.
[22:28:13] <pcapriotti> awesome work :)
[22:28:22] <UnionPivo> hmm colone(it-s)
[22:28:39] <johann_ol> :)
[22:29:02] <piacentini> should we continue on the agenda, or does
anyone want to say something now?
[22:29:03] <UnionPivo> maybe post to kde-look aswel for the artists ?
[22:29:43] <marktaff> orders of the day
[22:30:01] <piacentini> k, feedback regarding new apps anyone?
[22:30:12] <piacentini> I see that ksquares is in kde review
[22:30:22] <piacentini> On its way to the main module :)
[22:30:55] <piacentini> any help needed, milliams, other than the one
given by Albert?
[22:31:18] <milliams> Im okay at the moment thankyou
[22:31:35] <milliams> I'm battling the highscores classes but I'm
making progress with them
[22:31:35] <piacentini> is Josel live?
[22:31:37] <milliams> yes, if all goes well it should be moved in about a week
[22:31:48] <piacentini> for ksudoku report?
[22:31:52] <marktaff> anyone know if kleag has solved his crashing probs?
[22:32:00] <tsdgeos> still happening here
[22:32:18] <piacentini> marktaff: it seems not yet, but I am holding
out the update of kdelibs until monday so I can not help as well
[22:32:44] <johann_ol> UnionPivo: i don't think is a good idea for
kde-look for now
[22:32:57] <piacentini> johann_ol: finished commiting the code
changes to KGoldrunner yesterday to support the new length of the
runner cycles. I will commit the art maybe later today, or tomorrow
[22:33:06] <johann_ol> :D
[22:33:22] <it-s> :)
[22:33:27] <piacentini> And then you guys can work with it, retouch, etc
[22:33:37] <marktaff> I agree that we should wait until at least a
good beta before we post stuff to kde-look ans such
[22:34:02] <johann_ol> fine, it-s and me have a crazy idea to finish ;)
[22:34:10] <marktaff> I'd hate to inspire people to make new artwork,
and then have something change that makes it worthless
[22:34:17] <it-s> We were waiting for kgoldrunner :)
[22:34:41] <UnionPivo> marktaff, I see your point
[22:35:07] <piacentini> it-s: Hopefully you guys can re-use my runner
cycles, I did it with clones of 16 SVG body parts. Otherwise you have
to redo 36 frames of animation, times 3 (for the enemies and enemies
with gold...)
[22:35:07] <johann_ol> will the artwork switcher + gethotnewstuff
ready for 1st june?
[22:35:18] <piacentini> johann_ol: I think it has to
[22:35:34] <piacentini> But honestly, it is up to each maintainer
[22:35:41] <piacentini> Some may not have it, which is a pity
[22:36:12] <milliams> and for some, like KSquares, it's not really applicable
[22:36:14] Join _tsdgeos has joined this channel (n=tsdgeos at 89.129.152.48).
[22:36:45] Quit tsdgeos has left this server (Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)).
[22:37:03] <UnionPivo> gethotnewstuff can upload thing now right ?
[22:37:06] <piacentini> milliams: still, if you could have it in a
shared dialog pane in libkdegames, it would be trivial for you to
implement it
[22:37:33] <piacentini> And who knows what artists could create for it?
[22:37:39] <johann_ol> for artwork, we musn't have a moving target.
When we open our artwork SVG file to other (kde-look), we can"t touch
the SVG spec anymore. I think we are far to be ready on this point too
[22:37:43] <milliams> piacentini: yes, I agree. A unified games
implementaion of GHNS would be ideal
[22:37:50] <piacentini> Rounder circles? lol
[22:37:56] <milliams> :D
[22:38:07] <it-s> Johann_ol: agreed.
[22:38:13] <marktaff> milliams: what is someone made art to use
little snakes instead of straight lines to conect the squares, for
example. Allowing theme switching would permit that.
[22:38:32] <piacentini> johann_ol: agreed: I am talking about the way
for the user to select a new theme
[22:38:41] <piacentini> A common dialog
[22:38:50] <milliams> marktaff: true, it would take a lot of work my
end but it could be sexy
[22:38:53] <johann_ol> yes, we need a common dialog
[22:38:55] <milliams> I'll look into it
[22:39:02] <marktaff> mmm, sexy. :-)
[22:39:04] Quit _tsdgeos has left this server (Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)).
[22:39:09] <piacentini> johann_ol: I volunteer to do it
[22:39:12] <UnionPivo> maybe even to upload highscores with it ?
[22:39:18] <piacentini> And implement it in KMines
[22:39:35] <piacentini> Just not sure it could be ready before FISL (11 April)
[22:40:09] <piacentini> As I still need to finish the KGoldrunner
art, and prepare my presentation (on KDE Games!) for FISL, before
Easter
[22:40:26] <milliams> piacentini: would you not have until June 1st to do this?
[22:40:30] <it-s> Piacentini: can't we help you with the art?
[22:40:44] * hrafnahnef staggers around like a newbie, asking
everyone what FISL is...
[22:40:48] <it-s> Piacentini: that way you will have more time on your hand.
[22:41:07] <piacentini> it-s: for the dialog? I do not think it is
needed. For KGoldrunner? yes, definately. But it is basically ready
for the first pass
[22:41:20] <piacentini> I just need to duplicate the runner and
rename the elements to make the enemy
[22:41:33] <piacentini> And then you guys can retouch it more
[22:41:54] <it-s> I see, Ok then.
[22:42:07] <piacentini> milliams: yes, until June 1st, but if I get
it earlier then you guys can try to implement it into the other games
[22:42:13] <piacentini> for theme switching
[22:42:23] <milliams> ahh, makes sense :)
[22:42:26] <piacentini> so the sooner, the better
[22:42:54] <piacentini> But if you guys are going to use
KConfigDialog (and you should!) then it should be a matter of a few
lines
[22:43:22] <piacentini> We just have to agree on the name of the
KConfig property that specifies the theme
[22:43:46] <milliams> gameThemeName?
[22:43:48] <johann_ol> piacentini: make it "unactivatable", just in
case it's too buggy for the final release. We had to do this for
kopete because it was too broken for 3.5.
[22:44:30] <piacentini> johann_ol: ok. But I am not talking about
knewstuff2 integration just yet, just a way for the user to select
between the installed themes at this point
[22:44:44] <piacentini> Eventually, knewstuff2 dialog would be
invoked from this dialog, sure
[22:45:22] <piacentini> I would need the help of someone (pino?
albert?) to review the api when it is done anyway
[22:45:45] * pinotree pops up
[22:45:52] <piacentini> BTW, jwickers is not here (probably logging)
[22:45:56] * pinotree reads a bit the backlog
[22:46:05] <pinotree> knewstuff2?
[22:46:06] <piacentini> But he contributed a new rule and some
modifications to KShisen
[22:46:29] <piacentini> so welcome, and thank you (when you read this)
[22:46:51] <piacentini> pinotree: well, when it is available
[22:47:09] <UnionPivo> how about insted of each game having its own
dialog, having one application for all games called theme maneger ?
[22:47:13] <piacentini> I am mostly concerned now with getting a way
to switch themes :)
[22:47:39] <piacentini> UnionPivo: it is more or less what I
volunteered to write, but it is not an application, it is a
kconfigdialog pane
[22:47:46] <pinotree> piacentini: general themes, or specific ones
(eg the ones provided by libkmahjong?
[22:47:47] <UnionPivo> and if you call it with thememaneger
--kgoldrunner you get to manage kgoldrunner etc
[22:47:52] <milliams> I think a common widget which can be implanted
into the application config dialog
[22:48:02] <marktaff> UnionPivo: I think for now we do the easy, and
leave any potential theme manager for 4.1 or later
[22:48:05] <pinotree> general /game/ themes
[22:48:13] <piacentini> pinotree: game-specific ones, identified by
the .desktop section
[22:48:22] <pinotree> .desktop?
[22:48:35] <pinotree> ah ic
[22:48:40] <piacentini> pinotree: yes, .desktop files are used as the
metadata holder
[22:48:44] <piacentini> for translations, etc
[22:48:53] <pinotree> well, potentiall you could use whatever you want
[22:49:05] <pinotree> just using .desktop "ease" a bit the translation work
[22:49:13] <piacentini> pinotree: this is something I asked before,
but got no definitive reply
[22:49:30] <piacentini> Someone said that using .desktop would also
be better because it is a freedesktop standard. Does it make sense?
[22:49:36] <pinotree> no :)
[22:49:44] <pinotree> that is not a valid reason ;)
[22:49:45] <piacentini> so it is the integration with scripty only?
[22:49:53] <pinotree> mainly, yes
[22:50:02] <piacentini> could we maybe use .theme?
[22:50:08] <pinotree> let me see...
[22:50:08] <piacentini> And modify scripty accordingly?
[22:50:31] <Josel> hi, sorry for being late
[22:50:48] <pinotree> piacentini: hold on, looking at what scripty
can currently process
[22:51:09] <piacentini> pinotree: if we can, and it is not too
confusing for translators, then we can maybe do this. Otherwise
.desktop is fine for me
[22:51:11] Quit Silveira_Neto has left this server (Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)).
[22:51:16] Join _tsdgeos has joined this channel (n=tsdgeos at 89.129.176.242).
[22:51:24] <nicolas030> Note: But as the .desktop is a freedesktop
standard, we should pay attention with the given names to the
attributes. In the standard it is written, that proprietary attributes
(not in the standard) should begins with "X-".
[22:51:42] <marktaff> I am fine with .desktop
[22:51:42] <pinotree> nicolas030: moot point
[22:52:00] <piacentini> doing a quick rename now from .desktop to
.theme is trivial, we just need to define before the first beta
[22:52:01] <pinotree> as long as you keep them "private", there's no
cnflict with the system
[22:52:19] <piacentini> we can also call it .piacentini
[22:52:22] <piacentini> :)
[22:52:26] <_tsdgeos> i don't know if it has been said
[22:52:29] <_tsdgeos> but remember the translators!
[22:52:37] * hrafnahnef agrees with piacentini
[22:52:43] <nicolas030> (The source:
http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ and
http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/latest/ar01s08.html
)
[22:52:52] <piacentini> tsdgeos: that is the point, we are trying to
see if .desktop makes it easier for the translators to pick them up
[22:53:10] <_tsdgeos> ok, my router decided to die, sorry :-)
[22:53:14] <piacentini> I confess I am not familiar with the
translation properties
[22:53:24] <piacentini> not properties, procedure
[22:53:38] * pinotree more or less, is
[22:53:52] <piacentini> How does a .desktop file ends up in the hands
of the translator teams? Is it done by scripty?
[22:54:03] <_tsdgeos> well, scripty processes .desktop, but should
not be "difficult" instructing him to process other files
[22:54:07] <pinotree> wait
[22:54:09] <piacentini> And if it is, can/should we modify it to also
understand .theme?
[22:54:22] <_tsdgeos> scripty creates a .po from the .desktop files
and then merges the changes from the .po into the .desktop
[22:54:30] Nick _tsdgeos is now known as tsdgeos.
[22:54:48] <piacentini> or better yet, .kdegame_theme, or .gametheme,
something even more specific?
[22:55:16] <pinotree> find $dir \( -name \*.directory -o -name
\*.desktop -o -name \*.kimap -o -name \*.themerc -o -name \*.kcsrc -o
-name \*.setdlg -o -name index.theme -o -name eventsrc -o -name
\*.protocol \) >> $filelist
[22:55:21] <pinotree> here you have
[22:55:30] <pinotree> the list of "files" scripty understands
[22:55:50] <piacentini> there is already index.theme there, wonder
what it is for?
[22:56:07] <pinotree> .directory, .desktop, .kimao, .themerc, -ksrc,
.setdlg, index.theme, eventsrc
[22:56:27] <tsdgeos> icon/sound themes i think
[22:56:33] <piacentini> ok, index.theme is for icons, freedesktop
[22:56:40] Join JLP has joined this channel
(n=jlp at 89-212-91-146.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net).
[22:57:03] <piacentini> So should we try to use something like .gametheme?
[22:57:08] <pinotree> dir="$BASEDIR/`get_path kdegames`"
[22:57:08] <pinotree> for file in `cat $dir/kolf/courses.list`; do
[22:57:08] <pinotree> cat $dir/kolf/$file >> $filelist
[22:57:09] <pinotree> done
[22:57:15] <pinotree> kolf tricks a bit :)
[22:57:47] <marktaff> Does scripty do arbitray strings, or do we have
to tell it in advance what fields to process?
[22:59:18] <piacentini> marktaff: for .desktop it just works
[22:59:34] <pinotree> i think it threats them as Key=Value files
[22:59:41] <pinotree> ie ini files
[23:01:02] <piacentini> should we ask coolo, or just let it with
.desktop and concentrate on other things? Vote?
[23:01:43] <pinotree> .desktop and go on
[23:01:46] <marktaff> I vote .desktop
[23:01:52] <tsdgeos> rather, anyone going to have time to work on it?
[23:02:01] <piacentini> k, go on then, no need to find more work at this time
[23:02:54] <piacentini> anything else in the list? marktaff, do you
want to talk about your work?
[23:02:58] <marktaff> yes
[23:03:21] <piacentini> go on
[23:03:23] <marktaff> I wote a breif text summary of the plan and the
status at: http://marktaff.com/tmp/kgamelcd/kapp4/KGameSvgDigit.status
[23:03:52] <tsdgeos> after that i want to speak about kiriki
[23:04:18] <marktaff> Basically, I expect to have a replacement ready
for integration with a test game, maybe KMInes, by about 15 April
[23:04:53] <marktaff> Which game really depends on which author is
ready to try it out. :-)
[23:05:19] <piacentini> k, nicolas will need it for his rescue work
on ksirtet as well
[23:06:05] <piacentini> BTW, I think we should also try to do a peer
review of libkdegames before June 1st
[23:06:06] <marktaff> After my code is done, I have to do artwork, a
tutorial. Then I am free to helps other in other tasks
[23:06:18] <piacentini> and clean it up for the kde4 release, if necessary
[23:06:30] <piacentini> something for future meetings :)
[23:06:40] <marktaff> yes. I want dead code out of libkdegames
before beta, if possible, so 3rd parties are aware of what's changing
[23:06:42] <johann_ol> i think a test app is a good idea too
[23:06:57] <marktaff> johann_ol: k
[23:07:14] <nicolas030> for KSirtet: It will be difficult to make it
for 4.0 ... but I'll try :)
[23:07:25] <piacentini> tsdgeos: kiriki?
[23:07:28] <tsdgeos> yeah
[23:07:33] <tsdgeos> well, i just downloaded gnome-games
[23:07:36] <piacentini> nicolas030: take your time!
[23:07:39] <tsdgeos> 2.16
[23:07:56] <tsdgeos> and their gtali is basically the same thing kiriki is now
[23:08:08] <piacentini> yes, i played it
[23:08:15] <tsdgeos> normal as kiriki was born as a gtali clone
[23:08:38] <tsdgeos> the thing is that someone thinks it's worth to
ship kiriki or not
[23:08:52] <tsdgeos> for people that don't know what we are speaking about
[23:08:54] <tsdgeos> http://home.gna.org/kiriki/
[23:09:13] <tsdgeos> http://live.gnome.org/Tali
[23:09:28] <UnionPivo> Question, does kde games accept games writent
in scripting language ? (like puthon/ruby) ?
[23:09:37] <tsdgeos> UnionPivo: yes
[23:09:48] <tsdgeos> it could
[23:09:59] <marktaff> I like the idea of a yahtze-like game in KDE
[23:10:15] <marktaff> esp. if network enabled.
[23:10:18] <tsdgeos> there was a huge discussion on kde-core-devel and
i think the decision was we wanted some apps to use scripting
[23:10:26] <tsdgeos> marktaff: is as network enabled as the gnome version
[23:10:30] <tsdgeos> not enabled :D
[23:10:54] <marktaff> never played the gnome version, or anything
other than the original paper version. :-)
[23:11:08] <marktaff> perhaps with ggz, that will be easier to implement
[23:11:57] <tsdgeos> ok, so piacentini, johann_ol what's your thoughts?
[23:12:27] <piacentini> tsdgeos: I believe I spoke with you about it
a couple of months ago! I think it should be included, but at the time
you were not certain of it
[23:12:30] <piacentini> :)
[23:12:40] <tsdgeos> ok
[23:12:43] <tsdgeos> so let it be in
[23:12:48] <tsdgeos> if noone else disagrees
[23:12:54] <tsdgeos> i'll do some final touches and move to review
[23:12:59] <milliams> I think it should be included
[23:13:03] <johann_ol> ok for me too
[23:13:03] <tsdgeos> i'll need someone to replace me in the review squad
[23:13:04] <piacentini> And in the future, it is a good candidate for
network-enabling
[23:13:19] <it-s> What is the problem with including it?
[23:13:27] <piacentini> tsdgeos: why replace you? too busy?
[23:13:34] <it-s> Why even ask? It looks finished to me.
[23:13:40] <tsdgeos> well, i can't review my own game :D
[23:13:46] <tsdgeos> it's not fair
[23:13:51] <marktaff> he wants to recuse himself :-)
[23:13:56] <piacentini> well, you can abstain to vote on yours
[23:14:13] <tsdgeos> ok
[23:14:13] <piacentini> it is common practice on festivals, etc
[23:14:16] <johann_ol> yes, just that
[23:14:36] <tsdgeos> good
[23:14:41] <piacentini> it is not as if we are giving out 1 milliion
dollars or anything like that :)
[23:14:55] <tsdgeos> milliams: did you have a look at "old" highscore
classes in libkdegames?
[23:15:20] <johann_ol> piacentini: about volonteers, can we talk about
UI/usability?
[23:15:24] <piacentini> tsdgeos: last time I checked the standard
ones appeared to be broken (at least testing in KGoldrunner), but the
ext ones worked
[23:15:24] <milliams> tsdgeos: yes I did and the simple KHighscore
class seems fine
[23:15:56] <milliams> tsdgeos: It's the KExtHighscore classes that I
dislike. They're an overengineered mess afaic
[23:16:05] <piacentini> milliams: agreed
[23:16:06] <tsdgeos> i agree
[23:16:08] <milliams> I simply can't navigate my way through them
[23:16:16] <piacentini> johann_ol: sure, go on after milliams
[23:16:29] <milliams> So I'm going to try to hack KExtHighscore into
place or write a replacement
[23:16:36] <johann_ol> :)
[23:16:39] <tsdgeos> i'm basically using KScoreDialog on kiriki
[23:17:17] <milliams> Ian seemed rather adamant that he needed
worldwide highscores
[23:17:29] <milliams> and for that, a more complex system is needed
[23:17:37] <tsdgeos> the problem with worldwide scores
[23:17:41] <piacentini> milliams: the problem is... why bother?
[23:17:43] <tsdgeos> is that you are going to get cheaters
[23:17:44] <UnionPivo> milliams, well i think gethotnewstuff supports
uploading aswel
[23:17:45] <piacentini> they will be hacked
[23:18:04] <piacentini> tsdgeos: :) same thoughts exactly
[23:18:12] <milliams> That was my thought. I think a simple, local
highscore system is needed. One that's easy to use :D
[23:18:35] <marktaff> Just look at the kmines global high scores.
Completely meaningless
[23:18:38] <milliams> But i'd like to hear what features people want
[23:19:07] <milliams> is a super-simple highscore table enough or do
people want player statistics too?
[23:19:19] <piacentini> I really do not care about highscores at
all... just make it simple to implement locally for the game author,
with the option of a configuration (for level of difficulty or game
setting)
[23:19:47] <milliams> piacentini: sounds good, that's the way I've
been going so far anyway
[23:19:56] <johann_ol> an internet score system has 2 advantages:
motivate users to play, and see which games are loved by users
[23:20:25] <hrafnahnef> How about a silly little encryption of the
uploading. The cheaters will have to put in a lot of work to figure
out the "protocol", meaning reading source code and thus get a chance
to get involved? (Stupid idea?)
[23:20:26] <milliams> what about system-wide highscores? (so people
on multi-user systems can compete with eachother)
[23:20:35] <piacentini> johann_ol: for games played via ggz we will
have this, for others it is simply impossible to guarantee a fair
system
[23:20:42] <piacentini> specially with open source games
[23:20:56] <tsdgeos> milliams: system-wide highscores is already
supported to some degree in the current system
[23:21:00] * nicolas030 has to leave and will read the log of the
end of the meeting later.
[23:21:15] <marktaff> bye nicolas030
[23:21:18] <milliams> tsdgeos: I know, but they don't yet work under
KDE4, should I fix that?
[23:21:24] <milliams> nicolas030: bye
[23:21:26] <nicolas030> Bye! Have fun! :)
[23:21:30] Quit nicolas030 has left this server ("using sirc version
2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12").
[23:21:34] <piacentini> I did a couple of server-side highscore
systems for web-based games, we had to use things like multiple
validation of every game move to generate the game again and verify
the score against the posted one
[23:21:43] <piacentini> Too much work for the average game in kdegames
[23:21:49] <milliams> piacentini: I agree
[23:21:59] <tsdgeos> milliams: if you could it would rock
[23:22:04] <marktaff> me too.
[23:22:37] <piacentini> miliams: I think some games in kdegames have
a -highscore or similar command line option, dont them?
[23:22:46] <piacentini> they
[23:23:03] <piacentini> So you can specify a global location for the
highscore file, supposedly to be used in these scenarios
[23:23:17] <piacentini> Maybe you can examine this idea, and start from it.
[23:24:19] Quit milliams has left this server (Read error: 104
(Connection reset by peer)).
[23:25:02] <piacentini> k guys, looks like we are done, 90 minutes
[23:25:11] <piacentini> anything else?
[23:25:13] <marktaff> guess milliams didn't like that idea. ;-)
[23:25:18] <piacentini> lol
[23:25:20] <marktaff> yes
[23:25:22] <tsdgeos> well
[23:25:35] <tsdgeos> i want to say that kombination is not going to be on kde4
[23:25:38] <tsdgeos> time time time
[23:25:43] <pinotree> :/
[23:25:49] <marktaff> quickly, anyone have any thought of the apidox
for the whole module?
[23:25:50] Join milliams has joined this channel
(n=matt at cpc1-horn1-0-0-cust299.cos2.cable.ntl.com).
[23:25:56] <marktaff> right now it is aweful
[23:26:05] <tsdgeos> pinotree: you know as well as me it's not ended
and we need to concentrate on more important things
[23:26:12] <marktaff> aby doxygen gurus here that can quickly whip it
into shape?
[23:26:13] <pinotree> yup, i know
[23:26:35] <piacentini> tsdgeos: maybe for 4.1? I agree it is better
to wait and make it as good as possible
[23:26:52] <tsdgeos> yeah
[23:26:52] <piacentini> marktaff: I am clueless about doxygen
[23:26:58] <tsdgeos> i have a huge todo for 4.0
[23:27:02] <tsdgeos> but empty for 4.1
[23:27:05] <milliams> sorry, I'm back
[23:27:07] <milliams> What did I miss?
[23:27:20] <tsdgeos> so if i'm able to make it all for 4.0, i want
kombination for sure to be in 4.1
[23:27:35] <UnionPivo> piacentini, doxygen itself is easy, content to
put in doxygen is harder :)
[23:27:40] <marktaff> milliams: kombination won't be in KDE 4, and I
raised a q about apidox layouts for the whole module
[23:27:49] <piacentini> milliams: not much, just my suggestion of
investigating the current usage of the command line option -highscore
in some kdegames
[23:28:08] <UnionPivo> piacentini, if you write documentation for
classes/functions i will convert it to doxygen if you want
[23:28:16] <milliams> piacentini: the code's still there and should
work. It's more of a buildsystem problem
[23:28:37] <piacentini> I do not know much about it, just remember
reading it on some kmahjongg bug reports
[23:28:48] <marktaff> UnionPivo: if you can get us a nice
organization for the module layout, I think we can handle to
documenting itself
[23:28:50] <piacentini> UnionPivo: tks, I will investigate it
[23:28:52] <hrafnahnef> tsdgeos: anything in particular with
Kombination you want help with?
[23:29:17] <tsdgeos> hrafnahnef: it basically needs lots of testing
[23:29:20] <tsdgeos> and the AI
[23:29:33] <tsdgeos> hrafnahnef: it basically "works" if you don't do
strange things
[23:29:35] <pinotree> tsdgeos: did you read the ml?
[23:29:39] <marktaff> remember, you need a Mainpage.dox in every
subdirectory of you want apidox made for
[23:29:42] <tsdgeos> pinotree: yeah yeah
[23:29:46] <tsdgeos> it's on the queue :D
[23:30:09] <UnionPivo> marktaff, I'll check it out, but like i said
the hardest part is the content
[23:30:09] <tsdgeos> pinotree: you should have a look at the patch too
as touches lots of code you did
[23:30:17] <pinotree> tsdgeos->enqueue( pinotree->flushAll() ); :-P
[23:30:26] <hrafnahnef> tsdgeos: I have a university easter holliday
for three weeks now. I might try it out and have a look at the AI
[23:30:40] <marktaff> If you can make us organized skeletons, I think
we will be OK. :-)
[23:31:11] <tsdgeos> hrafnahnef: don't do it just now, it's possible
although not sure how probable someone is chosen to do the AI under
google SoC
[23:31:40] <hrafnahnef> tsdgeos: ok
[23:31:52] <UnionPivo> sure but remeber that when you enable doxygen
you need to always change documentation with the code, or you get
errors
[23:32:02] <marktaff> yes
[23:32:44] <marktaff> UnionPivo: See:
http://www.englishbreakfastnetwork.org/apidocs/index.php?component=kde-4.0&module=kdegames
for the current mess
[23:33:06] <marktaff> Well, current as of earlier this morning
[23:35:53] <hrafnahnef> good night all,
[23:35:59] <marktaff> night
[23:36:09] <Josel> anyone interested in status of ksudoku?
[23:36:12] <UnionPivo> marktaff, well at least some of the libkdegames
documentation is ok
[23:36:23] <marktaff> Josel: YES!
[23:36:24] <UnionPivo> if its corect of course :)
[23:36:55] <marktaff> UnionPivo: KGameSvgDocument is correct. That's
all I can vouch for.
[23:37:18] <Josel> i'm sorry to say this, but beside of the not so bad
look (except welcome screen) it requires definitely much work to make
a good shape
[23:37:45] <tsdgeos> that means?
[23:37:54] <Josel> there are plenty of problems with the underlying code
[23:38:44] <piacentini> Sad to hear this, because it looks and plays
fine for the most part (speaking as an user)
[23:38:56] <UnionPivo> marktaff, well, i'll come up with somekind of
script, that will insert stubs
[23:38:57] <Josel> inconsistencies in the names of members, which
require many dynamic_cast to do the same job with different
implementation classes
[23:39:04] <marktaff> UnionPivo: Thanks
[23:39:11] <johann_ol> Josel: how do you see that when you look the
release plan?
[23:39:16] <pinotree> Josel: ??
[23:40:14] <Josel> it depends on my motivation, i'm currently the only
one of the ksudoku devs doing any work
[23:40:32] <Josel> the last weeks i had a bad motivation on cleaning up the mess
[23:40:55] <piacentini> Josel: it happens. You say the other devs are
also not motivated enough at this time?
[23:41:28] <Josel> francesco has not much time due to studing and mick
has to work on other projects
[23:42:00] <piacentini> I see, there was really no actual dev work
since the initial import. So you think you will not be able to get it
into shape for KDE4?
[23:42:24] <Josel> for the code quality issues i talked about, a small example:
[23:42:25] <tsdgeos> 4.0
[23:42:43] <Josel> if(ksudokuView* view =
dynamic_cast<ksudokuView*>( currentView())) {
[23:42:49] <Josel> view->current_selected_number = value;
[23:42:56] <Josel> } else if (RoxdokuView* view =
dynamic_cast<RoxdokuView*>( currentView())) {
[23:43:02] <Josel> view->selected_number = value;
[23:43:07] <Josel> } else return;
[23:44:05] <Josel> which is definitely no good c++ code, and some
files have dozens of that like
[23:44:33] <piacentini> Well, I see that it all boils down to how
motivated people feel to work on something
[23:45:06] <piacentini> As an example, other games (including
KMahjongg) were basically C code
[23:45:24] <piacentini> and they are internally not really pristine
examples of good programming, but there are very few bugs
[23:45:40] <piacentini> so the end result (to the user) is a nice game.
[23:45:49] <Josel> the sudoku-engine itself is C code in classes
[23:45:51] <marktaff> If it works with KDE4, then can't we wait until
we have more time/motivation to cleanup the code behind the scenes?
[23:45:55] <piacentini> I can see however that one may not feel
motivated to fix other people's mess
[23:45:59] <piacentini> totally understandable
[23:46:32] <piacentini> Do you feel that yourself or the other
maintainers would object if someone started hacking at the code in
playground?
[23:46:37] <piacentini> To see what happens?
[23:47:21] <piacentini> It is in playground anyway, knowing that you
guys have trouble right now finding time and motivation to work on it
may encourage others to step in
[23:47:37] <Josel> i don't have problems if anybody is helping, i just
want to know in advance where changes are going to be made
[23:48:12] <piacentini> well, this can create a problem :)
[23:48:32] <piacentini> if someone has to find the motivation to help
AND still has to report to you, then it will be twice as difficult
[23:48:34] <Josel> and i don't think anyone of the others ksudoku devs
will have any problem if the code gets better
[23:48:36] <piacentini> speaking plainly
[23:49:08] <Josel> simply leave me a note somewhere, on what files you
are working
[23:49:38] <piacentini> and do you feel it is worth to try to find
some help, or it would be better to wait a bit more?
[23:49:43] <Josel> i just don't want to change files to see that
someone else was faster and did exactly what i wanted to do
[23:50:47] Quit Pinaraf has left this server ("bye").
[23:51:02] <marktaff> Have to have some food. Back later.
[23:51:06] <Josel> i'm currently concentrating on seperating the core
sudoku-engine from the representation code, if someone does a bit of
cleanup in the GUI-classes that we make my job easier
[23:51:36] <piacentini> my suggestion is maybe post to the
kde-game-devels list about the situation if you need help
[23:52:10] <Josel> ok i will do this
[23:53:33] <piacentini> guys, two hours of meeting! I am tired and hungry :)
[23:53:50] * pinotree cruches piacentini
[23:53:59] <pinotree> oops
[23:54:10] * pinotree cruches a cookie
[23:54:28] <piacentini> johann_ol: if you need with the preliminary
review let us know. I guess via the ml?
[23:54:47] <johann_ol> yes
[23:55:35] <piacentini> k, nice reading you guys! I will work a bit
more on kgoldrunner art later today, after dinner! bye!
[23:55:41] <tsdgeos> bye
[23:55:48] <pcapriotti> bye
---
Paolo Capriotti
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