[kde-edu]: KTurtle language (was Re: Fwd: Translating KTurle commands)

[Mauricio Piacentini]

In general, at least for the 4.0 release, I believe we should stick to 
the design guidelines for the language outlined by Cies Breijs. At least 
this is my initial plan. I adjusted the translation code to work with 
the changes in KLocale. The examples are also fixed, so basic 
translation work can be started and tested. The next step was actually 
to work on the docs, where this issue would be clarified further, and on 
everything related to strings. Ideally, I would like to decide specifics 
about the language and translations in the Edu meeting (December 1st), 
but it would be too late due to the string freeze in Nov 14th. So at 
least for English we need to freeze the command set in the next week 
(probably the current one), and then start working with the translation 
teams after this.

I think I understand a bit the pros and cons of being compatible to 
Logo, and have discussed this a bit via IRC with Jeremy and specially 
Jeff Shipley as well. One of Jeff's plans (for 4.1 or later) is to 
possibly work on a new interpreter, implementing the Logo standard (one 
at least), and maybe hot-pluggable in the existing executable. If/when 
this happens we could have a "mode selection" in KTurtle, invoked via 
GUI or command line selection, which will trigger this advanced mode. 
This is just one idea that is floating, and there are a LOT of IFs 
before it materializes. It might be better to add a different program 
(KLogo anyone?) to the module, for example, using Jeff's interpreter, 
and with the goal of being a compatible implementation. Or the 
interpreter may never happen as well, in any event this is a discussion 
for the future.

Right now, for KDE 4, we should probably make it clear what Cies has 
been saying for a while in his posts and the KTurtle group:

KTurtle language is loosely based on Logo.
KTurtle language is not Logo.

I am going to address this in the user documentation, to make the point 
more clear, as the current one mentions Logo a lot. I must also add that 
I personally agree strongly with Cies' views, or with what I think Cies' 
reasons are for this. :) To me, KTurtle language as it is now is really 
easier for smaller children to get into. Full compatibility with one of 
the multiple Logo standards at this point would not be desireable imo, 
it would be implemented mostly for the sake of it, and not really 
fulfill the primary goals of the program and its intended initial 
audience. IMHO, we should design for the problem to be solved by the 
user (very easy language as a first introduction to programming) and not 
with the feature set in mind (Logo compliance.)

With this in mind, and given that the command set in 4.0 is still not 
frozen, we considered maybe providing just the minimal useful set for 
now. IF (a big IF) this minimal set could also happen to be a subset of 
Logo, nice. If not, this is not a goal. So it should not be a goal of 
the translation teams as well.

I understand the above is not definitive and clear :) That is because no 
decision has been set in stone. The intention of this email is to start 
a mini discussion here during the next couple of days, get feedback, and 
freeze the command set and translation guidelines for it next week. 
Input is welcome.

Speaking of goals, one of the features I would like to get into KTurtle 
in the future also has to do with this more pedagogic approach. It would 
consist of lessons/tutorials formatted as goal-driven scenarios, like 
getting the turtle through a maze, or drawing a specific shape. This 
would be a good approach also for younger children, who are intimidated 
by the sandbox approach (all can be done, no goals defined.) Again, 
plans for the future, but I want to mention it so people can get a sense 
on the type of problems we want to solve with the language.

Regards,
Mauricio Piacentini

Jeremy wrote:
> just saw this and thought I'd forward it to those that know ;-)
> 
> 
> ----------  Forwarded Message  ----------
> 
> Subject: Translating KTurle commands
> Date: Tuesday 06 November 2007
> From: Marta Rybczynska <kde-i18n at rybczynska.net>
> To: KDE i18n-doc <kde-i18n-doc at kde.org>
> 
> Hello,
> When translating KTurle commands, do you make it compatible with any 
> other Logo
> interpreter available in your language?
> 
> We're considering Imagine (Polish version, in this case, but there are 
> more). Are there any
> copyright issues when it comes to the commands set? Have any team 
> considered that?