[kde-edu]: Possible legal issue with KVocTrain

[Jason Harris]

Hello,

I am assuming that Langenscheidt hold no copyright claim on the langen2kvtml 
script itself, right?  Was their proprietary format reverse-engineered?  If 
so, I think we have nothing to worry about; there's nothing wrong with 
writing software that can parse data in a proprietary format (especially 
since there's no equivalent of the DMCA in Germany yet).

Jason

On Tuesday 15 February 2005 09:00 am, Peter Hedlund wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Through Ewald Arnold, the original author of KVocTrain, we have received a
> request from the German publisher Langenscheidt to remove a piece of code
> currently in KVocTrain, a program in the edu module currently maintained by
> me. The code in question is a Perl script called langen2kvtml that converts
> files from a proprietary format used by vocabulary learning software
> produced by Langenscheidt to our own kvtml (xml) format.
>
> More information about this request follows below, but I would with this
> like to start a discussion about the removal request and also present my
> opinion on the matter.
>
> Having said that IANAL, my opinion is that we should deny the request and
> keep the code in question. The decisive issue for me is a user's right to
> his data. Using the Langenscheidt software the user can create his/her own
> data files. The user has a right to the data in these files. We provide a
> possibility for the user to access his/her data and use it with other
> software. Langenscheidt's argument is that the code can be used to
> illegally modify and distribute their copyrighted material. Even though
> this is to a certain extent correct, the user's right to his own data files
> is greater.
>
> Thanks,
> Peter
>
> =========
> This is Ewald Arnold's first message to me:
>
> yesterday I got a mail from Langenscheidt (www.langenscheidt.de). They are
> a german publishing house and sell dictionaries and vocabulary trainers.
> Obviouly some user kept them busy and confused for a while when he asked
> them for support for the langen2kvtml script which is part of kvctrain. As
> a result they asked me to remove the script from further publications.
>
> I am not legally experienced enough to tell if this demand can stand a
> legal dispute but I personally don't want to find out myself ;-) Since I
> received several mails claiming that the script didn't work for quite a
> long time there is no loss anyway when removing it. I also ask you to
> remove it from the documentation.
>
> Maybe the script has been removed some rather long time ago and the
> documentation has not been updated. Maybe this was the reason for this user
> to ask Langenscheidt instead of one of the people around kvoc.
>
> This topic in general might also be worth to discuss on the list. It is
> certainly a bad idea to spread converted files. But from my point of view
> it should be ok to provide converters for the reason of interoperability.
> But one should also tell the people not to ask for support at the wrong
> place.
>
> =========
> This is my response to him:
>
> This is of course an interesting problem. As I see it they got fed up with
> being asked to support a product that is not theirs (the script). As a
> result they asked for its removal.
>
> However (but IANAL), to me the script is not different from any other
> import filter for any other file type. From what I can tell by visiting the
> vokabeln.de site it is possible to create your own files in their format
> using their software. It seems obvious that blocking the use of a
> proprietary file format, take the MS .doc format as an example, in
> competitive products is not possible. Thus, we would be in our right to
> provide this functionality to our users in the same way other applications
> help users switch away from the competition. This would argue in favor of
> keeping the script. I don't think we should be too intimidated by their
> request.
>
> Other things to consider:
>
> 1. Neither of us is the original author of the script. I don't know how
> that affects our position.
> 2. The question of whether the script works or not. I haven't tested this,
> but I know there is at least one bug report filed.
> 3. We are very late in a release cycle and changes to the documentation
> should be very carefully considered.
>
> ==========
>
> Ewald then provided this additional information:
> > result they asked for its removal.
>
> he also wrote that they decline *every* request to use their files or
> formats. I have been thinkig about writing them again to re-think their
> point of view regarding open source and some potential advertisment for
> free. What I already did in my response was to point him to the fact that
> they don't offer products for free systems like linux even if there seems
> to be demand ;-)
>
> > help users switch away from the competition. This would argue in favor of
> > keeping the script. I don't think we should be too intimidated by their
>
> The point is that the script is used to convert "their" files which are
> covered by copyrights and only intended for use with their products.
> Similar to CDs and other content. In the meanwhile virtually every tool to
> copy CDs is forbidden by law.
>
> > 1. Neither of us is the original author of the script. I don't know how
> > that affects our position.
>
> probably not as it became part of the distribution.
>
> > 2. The question of whether the script works or not. I haven't tested
> > this, but I know there is at least one bug report filed.
>
> from the various mails I conclude that they changed their file format at
> least once.
>
> > Do you want me to take this entire discussion to the mailing list? I
> > think that would be a good idea.
>
> yes, certainly. This topic is too important for a decision by a single
> person and of general interest. It also affects the KDE project as a whole.
> In the KDE community there should be some persons with more legal knowledge
> and experience. Probably the people at Langenscheidt can be convinced to
> change their mind when they see their benefit. I personally would prefer
> some kind of permission, even it were not necessary from a legal point.
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