[announcement] Telegram bridging to be retired Wed. 20 Sept. | 5 to-dos

Wed Aug 23 08:34:04 BST 2023

(On top of what Paul said, if this happens, should we also stop with the
Reddit and Facebook management, since it’s a closed source software on for
profit companies?)

On Wed, 23 Aug 2023 at 03:41 Paul Brown <paul.brown at kde.org> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 22 August 2023 22:08:34 CEST Albert Vaca Cintora wrote:
> > KDE Connect has a Telegram group with 660 members (vs 100 on matrix). I
> > don't know if we are the exception
>
> It's not. Kdenlive is another example where most users on both the Spanish
> and
> English channels are largely on Telegram. I think you will find that
> developers
> tend to gravitate towards IRC and maybe Matrix, but end users gravitate
> towards Telegram and don't really want to open another account on yet
> another
> IM platform.
>
> But let me try to highlight some of the issues with this proposed plan (as
> is)
> with some questions:
>
> If we cut off hundreds of users from the rest of the community, will this
> action help or damage KDE's relevancy among end users? Will it increase or
> decrease the rate of adoption of our software?
>
> It has been mentioned that this was discussed at a BoF and on a mailing
> list.
> How many end users, say, from the KDE Connect and Kdenlive user channels
> on
> Telegram do you estimate attended the Bof and how many do you estimate
> regularly read the mailing lists?
>
> Is it right to make this decision behind the backs of the people who will
> be
> most affected?
>
> How does this plan fit in with KDE's vision, mission and manifesto, all
> three
> of which insist we take into account the users and their needs over most
> other
> things?
>
> As a reminder:
>
> https://community.kde.org/KDE/Vision
> https://community.kde.org/index.php?title=KDE/Mission
> https://manifesto.kde.org/
>
> If you have a healthy growing community of end users, already in the
> hundreds,
> probably surpassing a thousand users, is it sensible to cut it off?
>
> Moving on to the schedule, do you think, we, the channel mods and admins,
> can
> realistically migrate hundreds of people to a completely new platform they
> probably even haven't heard of in less than a month? Do we get time to eat
> and
> sleep?
>
> Do you think cutting users off will be a convincing argument that will
> encourage most of the people to migrate?
>
> Have you thought of other strategies we can use that will render better
> results? If so, would you mind sharing them?
>
> How many of the links to Telegram peppered all through our web pages have
> you
> removed and changed to point to Matrix?
>
> If none (it is none, isn't it?), shouldn't have this been one of your
> first
> actions, to curb incoming new users away from Telegram to Matrix? Why did
> you
> not think of this?
>
> In view of your prior answers, do you think maybe this "plan" may not be
> much
> of a plan at all, that maybe it is simplistic, even harebrained,
> unrealistic
> and insensitive, and, if forced through, you may hurt the community in
> ways
> that will take years to repair?
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> > with such a big group on Telegram, but
> > this is going to be a hit to our community :(
> >
> > On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, 09:02 Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss, <joseph at kde.org>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Hello KDE community,
> > >
> > > apologies for cross-posting!
> > >
> > > The time has finally come: both Telegram <-> Matrix bridges will be
> shut
> > > down in 4 weeks on *Wednesday 20 September*. Let's start the
> > > co-ordination process now so everything goes as smoothly as possible.
> > >
> > > For all KDE contributors: please read at least the "Five To-Dos" below
> > > to be informed about what will happen and what needs to be done.
> > >
> > > Below that there is some additional information about the bridging
> > > situation at KDE. Consult these notes if you want more background
> > > information about why the Telegram bridge is being retired.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Joseph
> > >
> > > _Five To-Dos_
> > >
> > >    1. *General*: On Wednesday 20 September the Telegram bridging to KDE
> > >
> > > Matrix rooms will be shut down. To make the transition go smoothly,
> > > teams should start co-ordinating for the shutdown now. The Matrix room
> > > for co-ordination is "Telegram shutdown co-ordination" at
> > > https://go.kde.org/matrix/#/#telegram-shutdown:kde.org.
> > >
> > >    2. *Co-ordination*: This includes: (i) migrating all contributors to
> > >
> > > Matrix, and (ii) deleting the Telegram rooms before the bridge is
> > > shutdown or -- at most -- one day after the shutdown. Keeping Telegram
> > > rooms open when they are no longer being used will cause unnecessary
> > > confusion. Importantly, do not later add a non-KDE Telegram bridge to
> > > KDE's Matrix rooms as that will not solve the problems from doubled
> user
> > > accounts and lack of control over Telegram; see below for operational
> > > issues with Telegram bridging.
> > >
> > >    3. *Action needed by Telegram room admins*: Due to the unexpected
> > >
> > > shutdown of the public Libera.Chat bridge, we will have to move rooms
> > > over to the matterbridge (ircsomebot) bridge as we work through moving
> > > channels over to our own Libera.Chat IRC bridge. This will require
> > > someone with admin in the Telegram room to ensure @ircsomebot is in the
> > > Telegram room with admin. This needs to be done after we unbridge the
> > > Matrix bridge from the Matrix side, so the room can continue to be
> > > bridged until the Telegram shutdown on 20 September.
> > >
> > >    4. *Are there exceptions?": There /may/ be some rooms that focus on
> > >
> > > interacting with people external to the KDE Community who would benefit
> > > by having a Telegram bridge. We are thinking teams like those involved
> > > in the KDE Network program: https://community.kde.org/The_KDE_Network.
> > > Not all will need an exception, and it may turn out most don't. We
> would
> > > like to start putting together a list of these rooms so we can review
> > > for potential exceptions and estimate the scale of how much support is
> > > needed. However, this should be kept to a minimum; see below for
> > > operational issues with Telegram bridging. We understand that there are
> > > large internal KDE communities which rely heavily on Telegram, and we
> > > understand that shutting down the Telegram bridge is less than ideal
> for
> > > these rooms, but the issues we have with the Telegram bridge mean we
> > > need to keep exceptions to a minimum and only for those teeams whose
> > > work has a primarily external focus.
> > >
> > >    5. *Getting a Matrix account*: We can offer KDE Contributors
> (usually
> > >
> > > those in the developers group, but will consider other requests) a
> > > Matrix account on our KDE Matrix Homeserver. To request an account
> > > please file a sysadmin ticket https://go.kde.org/systickets. However,
> as
> > > Matrix is federated you do not need to have an account on our
> homeserver
> > > to access KDE's Matrix rooms -- you can use any homeserver! A list of
> > > some alternative Matrix servers is available on
> > > https://joinmatrix.org/servers/.
> > >
> > > To co-ordinate with other teams to make this transition go as smoothly
> > > as possible, please reach out to the "Telegram shutdown co-ordination"
> > > Matrix room: https://go.kde.org/matrix/#/#telegram-shutdown:kde.org.
> > >
> > > _Additional Information Re Bridges_
> > >
> > >    * Four years ago it was decided to add Matrix to IRC as KDE's
> > >
> > > official IM platforms (bridged together). IRC is not planned to be shut
> > > down.
> > >
> > >    * Telegram is not Free Software and has never been an official
> > >
> > > platform for KDE communications. However, it has been used unofficially
> > > in a number of areas.
> > >
> > >    * EMS hosts KDE's Matrix instance and the current Telegram bridge,
> > >
> > > and the majority of issues our community have with Matrix are related
> to
> > > bridges. Due to the huge extra load and poor performance Telegram
> > > bridging has in the Matrix rooms, it was agreed with EMS that the
> bridge
> > > would be only run for about a year until people had time to migrate to
> > > Matrix.
> > >
> > >    * However, instead of people migrating away from Telegram, we have
> > >
> > > seen an increase in contributors using /both/ Matrix and Telegram,
> which
> > > has doubled the number of users we have to cope with. Having twice as
> > > many users as needed in the room slows everything down: longer joins,
> > > more state events for each user, higher chances of room state
> developing
> > > problems.
> > >
> > >    * The public Libera.Chat bridge was unexpectedly shutdown, and we
> > >
> > > have to move rooms over to the matterbridge (ircsomebot) bridge as we
> > > work through moving channels over to our own Libera.Chat IRC bridge.
> > > This is not as originally planned, which was to migrate to that IRC
> > > bridge after the Telegram shutdown.
> > >
> > >    * The vast majority of spam is from Telegram. Due to the Telegram
> > >
> > > bridge account being reported for spam, the account has lost the
> ability
> > > to do admin tasks in many rooms. At its worst the account was blocked
> > > from logging in for weeks, making the bridge non-functional. Since
> then,
> > > rooms often can't be bridged without deleting the Telegram room and
> > > starting fresh, but this only has about a 30% success of working
> > > long-term. We did not get anywhere attempting to get Telegram to help.
> > >
> > >    * The current Telegram bridge doesn't work properly so it makes
> sense
> > >
> > > to shut it down rather than trying to just change account phone numbers
> > > (which would require removing the bridge from all channels then
> > > re-adding to a new bridge, with high chance we end up in the same
> > > situation in the future).
> > >
> > > --
> > > Joseph P. De Veaugh-Geiss
> > > KDE Internal Communications & KDE Eco Community Manager
> > > OpenPGP: 8FC5 4178 DC44 AD55 08E7 DF57 453E 5746 59A6 C06F
> > > Matrix: @joseph:kde.org
> > >
> > > Generally available Monday-Thursday from 10-16h CET/CEST. Outside of
> > > these times it may take a little longer for me to respond.
> > >
> > > KDE Eco: Building Energy-Efficient Free Software!
> > > Website: https://eco.kde.org
> > > Mastodon: @be4foss at floss.social
>
>
> --
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