[kde-artists] [Patch] Will Commit::Names for Missing Oxygen icons

James Richard Tyrer tyrerj at acm.org
Thu Jul 3 17:46:33 BST 2008

Jakob Petsovits wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2. July 2008, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
>> Will commit Friday
>> The final patch has been posted for a while so if there are no 
>> objections, I will commit it on Friday 7/04/08.
> On Wednesday, 2. July 2008, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
>> I have not yet seen your comments on these proposed icon names:
>> go-first-page go-previous-page go-next-page go-last-page
>> go-previous-document go-next-document
>> Considering the names and tooltips for the Standard Actions that 
>> they are to be icons for, and the fact that current practice is to 
>> use 'next' for 'forward' and 'previous' for 'back' in the spec (all
>> as shown below), these seem to be the obvious names for these 
>> icons.
>> I have added a patch to the thread and it has been up for a while 
>> so I was going to commit it on Friday if that is OK.  But, I would 
>> appreciate your comment first.
> My comment would go like "yeah, whatever". I'll probably take a step 
> back also because I'm tired to discuss things with you, so if I don't
> object then it's obviously ok for you to commit.

I guess that I would like to see actual approval.
> That said, I'm fine with the -page icons (and have coordinated with 
> pinheiro to get those into Oxygen, too). There is a real need for 
> those, and even if they could also have been solved differently, the 
> way it goes now is just as valid and maybe even more expressive for 
> the user than generic "go to next list item" icons that I have 
> previously proposed.

Actually, the names are just for developers and artists -- actually, if
developers use the Standard Actions, they don't need to know the names
of the icons..  So, unless you want to use existing icon name, the name
doesn't matter that much.  If you feel that we need:


icons, I see that as a different issue since these are clearly to page
through a document or something that functions like a document (such as
a directory containing image files).

> I do strongly disagree with the -document actions, because if we go 
> on adding arrow icons for all kinds of actions then it will be no 
> less confusing to the user than with similar icons.

IIUC, you want the two 'document' standard actions to continue to use
the icons that they now use.

> (Like, which arrow does what? How can you tell that from four 
> different sets of arrows that don't have any specifics on what they 
> do, just look differently from each other?)

Looking different is all that is necessary.  You find out what toolbar
icons do by reading the tooltip and they you learn which is which
without being conscious of it.  OTOH, what the icons look like is not
determined by their names.  The KDE Classic icons for this (KDE3 names):


are quite different than just another type of arrow.

> As far as I remember, the DocumentBack and DocumentForward actions 
> were added because they clashed with the "global" (Konqueror) ones in
>  terms of shortcuts and merged menu entries.

It is hard to determine that.  It looks like in KDE3 that the 'next' &
'previous' icons were assigned to "Next Page" & "Previous Page" which
was an error.  Then the error was covered up by making the CrystalSVG
icons the same as "forward" & "back"  Since we didn't have a set of 4
icons for the "* Page" functions, the fix was to change the icon names
for these Standard Actions to "forward" and "back" and I made CrystalSVG
icons from someone else's work for them.  There were no Standard Actions
for the icons: "next" :& "previous" so developers had to add them to
their application and should have added RTL reversal as well.  It
appears that in KDE4 that two new standard actions were added for these
icons.  Perhaps the choice of the Standard Actions isn't correct, but it
still appears that they should be for these icons.

> They still both do the same (go back/forward in history)

Remember that developers can change the tooltip and use these two
Standard Actions for something else.  You can use them for "Next in
List" & "Previous in List"  So, as I see it, these Standard Actions:


are going to be used when these two icons are wanted.

So, I would say that the standard Actions "DocumentForward" &
"DocumentBack" were added in KDE4 because in KDE3 we didn't have
Standard Actions for the "next" & "previous" icons.  Perhaps one of the
core developers knows exactly why this was done, but I would guess that
the fact that this was needed for Okular might have been the reason.

So, I think that these icons belong with these actions. Otherwise, we
won't have Standard Actions for them and we should have Standard Actions
even if only so they are reversed correctly for RTL.

> so I'm not ok with those actions getting different icons because the
>  same action should always get the same icon. It doesn't matter a lot
>  of this action works on the file navigation level or on the page 
> navigation level, it's still the same action.

What you say makes sense, but I don't see it as the issue.  If you think
that the two Standard Actions are not correct, then you are going to
need to discuss it with the core developers.

> I won't fight strongly about the go-*-document actions being 
> reverted, because they won't affect the default look (pinheiro 
> already noted that arrow icon proliferation in Oxygen is a no-go) and
>  the effort of discussing that stuff with you is probably not worth 
> the effort, imho.

Actually, it is the for "go-*-page" icons that are new.  The icons for 
"go-*-document" already exist in CrystalClear, CrystalSVG, Kids, 
KDEClassic, LoColor, KDE3 Oxygen & Technical.  Other icon themes (even 
GNOME themes -- wonder what they will do with the new names) use the 
name but duplicate "forward" & "back".
So, although there are clearly issues with the name and default usage of 
the two Standard Actions "DocumentForward" & "DocumentBack".  We can 
select different icon names other than "go-*-document".  I only 
suggested that name because it matches the name of the Standard Actions.

But, I don't think that there is any question that these icons should go 
with these Standard Actions.  If there is a question, I think it is 
about the Standard Actions and I would suggest that you take to the core 
developers about that.  But, as I said, I think that it was based on 
their being used in Okular.  The Standard Actions could be given a 
different name and no default tooltip, but they should still use these 

IAC, there is controversy over these icon names so I will not commit 
them until it is resolved.

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