What is freedesktop.org

Fri Feb 20 15:28:40 GMT 2004

 Hello,

 [as we all know now, off-topic posts should be kept off kde-core-devel@, so 
this initial mail is just as a notice for those not on the right list, where 
this belongs, which is ... erm ... kde-policies@ I guess].

 There has been some confusion about freedesktop.org(=fd.o) recently (e.g. 
http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog?from=12), showing that many people actually 
don't know what fd.o is or intends to be. This includes both developers and 
users. And actually a (yet another) person person believing that fd.o == 
XServer implementation upset me a bit and I got in a discussion on 
#freedesktop about fd.o goals not being widely know, confusing, and so on (if 
there are so many believing it's just XServer, how many do really know what 
it is?). Those bored enough can see it in the attachment, it includes also 
some of the things like "it's on fd.o, so it must be a standard", "KDE wants 
to do everything on its own", etc.

 The discussion ended with the conclusion that fd.o needs some FAQ that would 
clearly explain what is it all about and some of the confusing things like 
what's the relation of the hosted software to the hosted specifications, etc.

 So if you have any special question you'd like to ask, do so, I'll collect 
the questions and forward them as a whole to the respective list. I'm quite 
sure I have a couple of them myself, as I realized that although being a  
contributor to some of the specs, there are things about fd.o I don't quite 
understand (and, in fact, I think more people in #freedesktop had similar 
trouble).

 I hope this can help with our understanding what fd.o is and taking part in 
it, as well as with making it clear what fd.o is to the public.

 BTW, I just found 
http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-core-devel&m=105845044823982&w=2 , which actually 
explains some things. I'm pretty sure I was away in that part of summer, so I 
guess I missed that one while trying to catch up with my mails. So this is 
just in case the same happened to you, or you forgot meanwhile.

-- 
Lubos Lunak
KDE developer
---------------------------------------------------------------------
SuSE CR, s.r.o.  e-mail: l.lunak at suse.cz , l.lunak at kde.org
Drahobejlova 27  tel: +420 2 9654 2373
190 00 Praha 9   fax: +420 2 9654 2374
Czech Republic   http://www.suse.cz/
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[14:22:05] <mharris> nakee: What Seli said is correct.  freedesktop.org is just a site for hosting other projects.  It also hosts various specifications and other things.  freedesktop.org itself is not a software project, however many people often mistakenly look at it as such.
[14:22:21]  mharris is ~mharris at h24-76-52-228.su.shawcable.net (Mike A Harris)
[14:22:21]  on channels: #freedesktop
[14:22:21]  on IRC via server irc.freenode.net (http://freenode.net/)
[14:22:21]  mharris :is an identified user
[14:22:21]  mharris has been 17 seconds idle
[14:22:38] <mharris> Each project hosted at freedesktop.org would determine its own coding style (if any).
[14:23:15] <nakee> mharris: how about xserver/xlibs?
[14:23:17] <mharris> nakee: I don't disagree with you about xlibs/xserver looking like a mess, however one must understand that this code was written over a period of 20 years.
[14:23:41] <mharris> It has contributions from some large number of different companies with different coding styles (or lack thereof) as well as hundreds of individual contributors.
[14:23:57] <lupusBE> the kernel project is not a mess
[14:24:00] <lupusBE> and is bigger
[14:24:06] <nakee> mharris: I know, that what I mean if we'll have a coding style now we can fix up things according to it
[14:24:14] <mharris> I definitely think it is an amiable goal to /develop/ a coding style for things, and then reformat the sources at some point, however I don't think it should be done any time soon just yet.
[14:24:26] <mharris> There are more pressing matters upon us than coding style just yet.
[14:25:09] <Seli> IMHO the fd.o Xserver should get its own name, or soon only a handful of people will know what fd.o really is
[14:25:11] <mharris> lupusBE: But the kernel was developed over time as an open project, and had an established coding style to begin with, which was adhered to fairly strictly.
[14:25:13] <nakee> mharris: we are already doing formating when we remove the old k&r code
[14:25:24] <mharris> Seli: It has one, "kdrive"
[14:25:30] <lupusBE> mharris, does the fact that xfree is for more architectures it more difficult to hack
[14:25:31] <nakee> Seli: offer one?
[14:25:38] <mharris> If people would actually call it what it is - 'kdrive' then there would not be any confusion
[14:25:43] <nakee> mharris: not even keith call it like that:)
[14:25:47] <Seli> mharris: so why is it not used?
[14:26:07] <mharris> Seli: I have no idea, but do people call the DRI project "Sourceforge"?
[14:26:18] <mharris> I'm running sourceforge 3D drivers!
[14:26:20] <mharris> woohoo1
[14:26:22] <ex> lol
[14:26:24] <mharris> ;o)
[14:26:39] <nakee> mharris: are you saying that fd.o site ans sourceforge has the same purpose?
[14:26:49] <mharris> nakee: not at all
[14:26:54] <Seli> nakee: it's written on the front page, just read it
[14:27:07] <mharris> http://www.freedesktop.org/
[14:27:14] <mharris>  Welcome to freedesktop.org.
[14:27:14] <mharris> freedesktop.org is a free software project to work on interoperability and shared technology for desktop environments for the X Window System. The most famous X desktops are GNOME and KDE but any developers working on Linux/UNIX GUI technology are welcome to participate.
[14:27:26] <mharris> ...
[14:27:30] <nakee> Seli: what is?
[14:27:42] <nakee> mharris: I know what's written I asked what you ment:)
[14:27:50] <mharris> nakee: The purpose of the freedesktop.org project is described on the entire homepage.
[14:27:53] <nakee> mharris: you are the one who compared them
[14:28:00] <Seli> nakee: geez ... what the hell are you doing here then if you even don't know the homepage?
[14:28:16] <lupusBE> goodbye all got my exam dutch now :)
[14:28:25] <nakee> lupusBE: goodluck:)
[14:28:37] <mharris> No, I was not comparing sourceforge and freedesktop.  I was stating that you do not call a project that is _hosted_ at sourceforge "sourceforge", and so you should not call a project hosted at freedesktop.org "freedesktop"
[14:28:42] <lupusBE> tomorrow english
[14:29:01] <nakee> Seli: I know the webpage very well, I was asking mharris what he means not what's written in the hp
[14:29:10] <mharris> Both sites host software projects, both have totally different goals, and were created for entirely different purposes.
[14:29:18]  Signoff: lupusBE ("Leaving")
[14:29:26] <Seli> nakee: ah, I thought youre "what is" to me meant you didn't know
[14:30:10] <Seli> and I can say that quite some KDE folks are quite upset that the original goal of fd.o gets somewhat lost in all this 'fd.o X server' etc. stuff
[14:30:53] <mharris> Also, while the freedesktop.org project has plans to release a "platform" which is comprised of various components, just having a project hosted on freedesktop.org does not mean that it will necessarily become part of the freedesktop "platform", nor does it mean freedesktop.org /endorses/ the project per se.
[14:31:15] <Seli> and some of them actually even think fd.o should be only about specs, and not about hosting things like xserver or gstreamer
[14:31:17] <ex> kdrive just has a fix for what so many people have complaiend about for so long it's just more exciting than unified thumbnail formats =)
[14:31:30] <nakee> mharris: IMOH fd.o should promote standart and the hosting of project which promote standarts and not just yet another site which has 10 programs whcih does the same only diffrently
[14:31:36] <mharris> Seli: My question is... why does it matter?
[14:31:47] <Seli> mharris: why does what matter?
[14:31:52] <mharris> Sounds like more political nitpicking than any technical reasoning to me.
[14:32:15] <mharris> Why does it matter to KDE or anyone else that the freedesktop.org project now hosts software projects?
[14:32:28] <mharris> Is the KDE project opposed to improving the desktop?
[14:32:42] <Seli> mharris: because then anybody can come and say "XYZ is at fd.o, it's the standard, you HAVE to use it"
[14:32:53] <Seli> actually has already happened
[14:32:57] <mharris> Are they opposed to people working together collaboratively under one umbrella to try to improve the desktop, and to draw similar projects together?
[14:33:01] <nakee> Seli: that cause kde people like to do everything their way, instead of trying to cordinate with other projects, instead of having libkblabla and libgblalba for everything
[14:33:32] <mharris> Seli: No project hosted at freedesktop.org is "the standard" just because it is hosted at freedesktop.org.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is rather foolish.  ;o)
[14:33:44] <nakee> mharris: that what a lot of people think
[14:33:53] <Seli> mharris: that's exactly my point - those who think otherwise come in large numbers these days
[14:34:00] <ex> you guys tried out the "Gtk-qt" theme engine for gtk2 yet?
[14:34:00] <nakee> mharris: and more important that what many people expect from fd.o
[14:34:00] <mharris> My advice is to ignore such political/religious issues and just stick to improving the software and working together on important things.
[14:34:03]  aes (~andrew at as583.emma.cam.ac.uk) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:34:05] <nakee> and think it fails to live up to it
[14:34:30] <mharris> There will always be people who are dead set on dividing the community and causing uproar.  We can not all please everyone, and we shouldn't really try IMHO.
[14:34:48] <mharris> We should state our goals, and work towards them, and encourage others to join in and lend a hand also.
[14:34:55] <nakee> I think fd.o should encorage project to talk about deciding on standart and not for example host every sound server in the world
[14:35:00] <ex> mharris, aren't you doing that already?
[14:35:17] <mharris> ex: absolutely
[14:35:42] <mharris> Which is why I say to try and ignore people who oppose other people's efforts such as ours.
[14:35:54] <mharris> We do not oppose their efforts, why should they oppose ours?
[14:36:01] <ex> mharris, I've not talked to anyone who dislikes anything from freedesktop.org
[14:36:02] <Seli> mharris: so if somebody implements some crappy (let's say) vfs layer, puts it at fd.o, then suddenly KDE has to drop its much better KIO?
[14:36:06] <mharris> It is a free world after all, and we are all volunteers.
[14:36:19] <mharris> Seli: Why would they?
[14:36:24] <nakee> if the goal is to improve the desktop by causing diffrent desktop programs to agree on standart so they would work well with each other it could do a lot better job than what it is doing now
[14:36:36] <Seli> mharris: you weren't following me, were you?
[14:36:48] <mharris> If someone develops some crappy VFS layer, puts it on freedesktop.org, then who would want to bother using it?
[14:37:09] <Seli> mharris: somebody comes, says "it's at fd.o, it's the standard" , will add some of the bullshit like KDE having to do everything it's own way, and we're suddenly the bad ones?
[14:37:13] <mharris> Just having something on freedesktop.org is not an endorsement for it's quality, nor is it an indicator of inclusion into any "standard".
[14:37:32] <Seli> mharris: but who knows that?
[14:37:48] <Seli> pretty much everybody from outside thinks "it's at fd.o == it's standard"
[14:37:50] <mharris> Seli: As I said, you can't control what other people will say, however someone saying "it is the standard because it is on freedesktop.org" is NOT true.
[14:38:03] <mharris> Well, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in arguing about that really.
[14:38:04] <Seli> mharris: but people do that
[14:38:04] <nakee> well it should be true
[14:38:52] <nakee> or what you get is yet another sourceforge/savana like that which only a bit more desktop oriented
[14:38:54] <mharris> If some people want to have that nefarious type of viewpoint that is their perogative.  I think they are overly negative.  They are not going to prevent the freedesktop.org project from trying to attain it's goals, and they're not going to prevent us from allowing new projects to be hosted here.
[14:39:15] <mharris> Opinions may vary, but it is a free world, and free of choice.  Lets keep it that way.
[14:40:03] <Seli> mharris: all I'm saying that the goals of fd.o are not actually well-known, because of things like 'kdrive being called fd.o server', and so on
[14:40:11] <mharris> The KDE people are as welcome to host projects at freedesktop.org as anyone you know.
[14:40:24] <mharris> Good ones or crappy ones.
[14:40:45] <Seli> even competting ones, right?
[14:41:11] <Seli> or not? are competting projects allowed on fd.o?
[14:41:13] <mharris> Seli: The goals of freedesktop.org are stated on the homepage.  If people don't read it, well we can't force them to really.  And personally I find it hard to get people to stop calling kdrive "fd.o"
[14:41:15] <nakee> Unlike these groups, freedesktop.org is just a "collaboration zone" where ideas and code can be tossed around, and de facto specifications encouraged.
[14:41:38] <nakee> I do't see how that is happening when you host 10 diffrent program which promote diffrent standarts?
[14:41:45] <mharris> Seli: You can start your own X server project if you like.  Or 10 of them for that matter.  How about KDEXserver?
[14:41:54] <mharris> I can create the new project for you in 5 minutes.
[14:42:09] <Seli> then fd.o has two goals, which actually oppose each other
[14:42:15] <ex> mharris, I think it's called "fdo.o xserver" because it's listed ambiguously as "X server" on the freedesktop.org website instead of as "Kdrive"
[14:42:17]  wizzard_ (~wizzard at wizzard.at.gravisnet.lv) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:42:22] <mharris> We can create KDEXlibs too if you like.  And also GNOMEXserver or whatever else.
[14:42:25] <mharris> This is an open project.
[14:42:35] <nakee> ex: that's cause it's not kdrive, kdrive is the driver not the server
[14:42:47] <Seli> as nakeed said: if you host competting projects, how can you also work on common standards, and how can you avoid the confusion?
[14:43:15] <mharris> ex: 'xserver' is the name of the CVS project that was created by Keith to store 'kdrive' in.
[14:43:19]  jaeger (jaeger at 3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:4b3) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:43:30] <Seli> people will either think fd.o is the sooner, and ignore the standard, or the latter, in which case they'll force the implementations as standard on others
[14:43:43] <jaeger> greetings, all
[14:43:48] <Seli> standard+=s
[14:43:54]  Signoff: adnans (Remote closed the connection)
[14:43:54] <mharris> Well I'm not particularly interested in debating the pros and cons of "what people might think".
[14:44:17] <Seli> that's not "might", that's "do" and "will do"
[14:44:33] <ex> kdrive is used on fdo.org because it's smaller and easier to implement test extensions quickly right?
[14:44:34] <mharris> If people have non-argumentive questions about freedesktop.org, we're always more than happy to answer them or to try our best to.
[14:45:10] <mharris> If someone wants to host a project at freedesktop.org that fits into the project's stated mission on the homepage, they're welcome to also, and it doesn't matter at all if some other similar project is hosted here as well.
[14:45:30]  Signoff: mcv ("Frobnicating")
[14:45:32] <nakee> ex it seems it was like that but latter actions by xserver people proved it has more than that goal now
[14:45:38] <mharris> Nobody who has asked to start a project on freedesktop.org has been refused to date, to the best of my knowledge.
[14:45:49]  adnans (~Adnans at node-c-01d5.a2000.nl) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:46:36] <mharris> Perhaps someone is interested in writing a "Freedesktop.org FAQ"?  We'd be more than happy to put that up on the website Wiki to try and help answer people's commonly asked questions also.
[14:47:05] <nakee> mharris: no one seems to even be able to answer those questions to answer the faq
[14:47:22] <nakee> and even more nicely it seems diffrent fd.o personal answer diffrently on those questions
[14:47:22] <ex> nakee what additional goals does kdrive have now?
[14:47:36] <nakee> ex: depend what you call kdrive
[14:47:45] <mharris> Perhaps there is some confusion between the planned "Freedesktop Platform" and the "Freedesktop.org hosting site"?
[14:47:50] <ex> nakee lol, the fdo.o xserver ;)
[14:48:05] <mharris> Think of it somewhat like you would think of either the GNOME or KDE projects.
[14:48:07] <Seli> mharris: yes, I guess that's also a good source of the confusion
[14:48:12] <nakee> ex: it seems there are people around here who wrote to have a release of it based on xfree's DDX
[14:48:26] <mharris> gnome.org hosts "the GNOME project", but it also hosts lots of software that is not part of GNOME.
[14:48:36] <mharris> kde.org hosts "the KDE project", but it also hosts lots of software that is not part of KDE.
[14:48:55] <Seli> mharris: that's not true for KDE, and I doubt it's true for GNOME - what does it host that's not part of GNOME?
[14:48:58] <mharris> freedesktop.org hosts "the Freedesktop project",but it also hosts lots of software that is not part of freedesktop.
[14:49:43]  mrdocs (~mrdocs at h002078d91aee.ne.client2.attbi.com) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:49:43] <mharris> http://www.gnome.org/softwaremap/list
[14:49:47] <nakee> mharris: fine then, but then shouldn't it be written someone what projects are part of the fd platform and what isn't?
[14:49:49] <mharris> Seli: take your poick
[14:49:50] <mharris> pick
[14:50:23] <Seli> hmm, that's perhaps not GNOME desktop itself, but from a broader look it's all GNOME
[14:50:44] <mharris> there you go.  That proves my point.
[14:50:47] <mharris> ;o)
[14:51:00] <mharris> It isn't GNOME.
[14:51:13] <Seli> but people see e.g. abiword as part of GNOME
[14:51:25]  nakee points mharris to his question:)
[14:51:33] <mharris> A GNOME application, is not part of GNOME just because it is linked to GNOME libraries, and not even because it is hosted at GNOME.org
[14:51:45] <Seli> the same way, they'll see everything hosted at fd.o as part of the fd.o platform or as standards
[14:51:50] <mharris> The GNOME project has every right to help some project that uses Gnome by hosting it on their site.
[14:52:01]  Signoff: wizzard_ (Client Quit)
[14:52:20] <Seli> mharris: that doesn't matter - people SEE it that way, for the Abiword IS part of GNOME
[14:52:25] <Seli> the+=m
[14:52:27] <mharris> Well, the conversation seems to be going in circles and not going anywhere, so I think I'll just leave it at this.  ;o)
[14:52:48]  Signoff: drbyte (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
[14:53:18] <Seli> I guess I'll bring this up on xdg@ , because it looks even I myself am confused about some things
[14:53:21] <mharris> Seli: feel free to contribute to freedesktop.org if you wish.  We always appreciate new volunteers, and projects.  You don't have any obligation to do so either of course.  ;o)
[14:53:25] <nakee> mharris: I think my question is preety good not circle one if you chose to answer it:)
[14:53:41] <mharris> nakee: To answer your question above, 'yes'.
[14:53:56] <mharris> Right now, the following projects make up the freedesktop.org platform:
[14:54:02] <mharris> - nothing
[14:54:08] <mharris> That's the complete list so far.
[14:54:12]  drbyte (~byte at 219.95.149.148) has joined channel #freedesktop
[14:54:15] <ex> lol
[14:54:17] <mharris> So there should be no confusion hopefully.
[14:54:37] <nakee> mharris: that's not true, there are "officialy" tars of the fd platform
[14:54:43] <nakee> and they include at least dbus
[14:55:13] <mharris> There are lots of tarballs on freedesktop.org.  Each project is responsible for releasing their own tarballs however they see fit.  dbus is no exception.
[14:55:23]  mharris is ~mharris at h24-76-52-228.su.shawcable.net (Mike A Harris)
[14:55:23]  on channels: #freedesktop
[14:55:23]  on IRC via server irc.freenode.net (http://freenode.net/)
[14:55:23]  mharris :is an identified user
[14:55:23]  mharris has been 10 seconds idle
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[14:55:41] <mharris> dbus will /probably/ be part of the freedesktop.org platform, when there actually IS one.  ;o)
[14:56:00] <mharris> But not because it happens to be hosted at freedesktop.org.
[14:56:42] <mharris> To further promote my point:
[14:56:44] <mharris> http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/Home
[14:56:54] <mharris> " Software hosted on/related to freedesktop.org
[14:56:54] <mharris> Some software has made its way here to live. None of this is "endorsed" by anyone or implied to be standard software, remember that freedesktop.org is a collaboration forum, so anyone is encouraged to host stuff here if it's on-topic. "
[14:57:11] <mharris> How is that not clear?
[14:57:30] <Seli> mharris: pick randomly 10 people somewhere and ask how many of them know it
[14:57:30] <mharris> Another case in point:
[14:57:32] <mharris> http://www.freedesktop.org/Software/MAS
[14:57:39] <mharris> Do you think MAS is "standard"?
[14:57:43] <mharris> That would be laughable!
[14:58:00] <Seli> I have no doubts there would be somebody willing to claim that
[14:58:00] <mharris> MAS has about as much chance of becoming "standard" as I have of becoming President!
[14:58:58] <mharris> I would violently oppose the consideration of MAS in *any* standard, even if it was hosted at KDE.org  ;o)
[14:59:20] <mharris> Thankfully, I don't think many would oppose my position other than the authors and people who funded it.  ;o)
[14:59:50]  Signoff: FoPref (Remote closed the connection)
[15:00:21] <Seli> you still don't get my point - there's no publicly know distiction between the various things related to fd.o
[15:00:22] <mharris> Seli: What is your point though?  Should MAS be booted off of freedesktop.org because "someone might claim it is a standard, so it has to go"
[15:00:39] <nakee> http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/325
[15:01:03] <ex> I'm voting for Mharris this year
[15:01:20] <ex> write-in!
[15:01:39] <mharris> nakee: sorry, but I'm not particularly interested in reading flamewar threads that are bound and determined to try and destroy and to be negative, rather than to create and be positive.
[15:02:00]  FoPref (~lanrules at lanrules.hawo.ipv6.uni-erlangen.de) has joined channel #freedesktop
[15:02:38] <Seli> mharris: geez, you have good chances of becoming a president, you'll like a politician, not really listening, and just repeating empty phrases (sorry)
[15:02:55] <mharris> From the entire discussion today, I believe we have gained one useful thing at least.  I think that a new FAQ should be created which is prominently on the freedesktop.org homepage, and clearly specifies the answers to some of the concerns Seli has brought up, which others may also be wondering.
[15:03:36] <mharris> Other than that, I'm not sure what else we can really do.  We're not going to take down freedesktop.org, we're not going to boot projects off or refuse projects "because someone might think they are 'standard'", and we're not going to throw away the project's goals.
[15:03:37] <Seli> great, I was hoping to get at least to something like that
[15:04:08] <Seli> I'm not saying projects have to be booted off, it should be just clear what is what
[15:04:21] <nakee> mharris: I also believe that if fd.o going to decide on some platform they should make an official body made out of community members that would decide what would be in it
[15:04:27] <mharris> Seli: I'm hardly like a politician.  I am listening, I am just not going to dwell on what you or others are saying as it's mostly negative.
[15:04:47] <mharris> There is enough negative stuff going around that I'm kindof getting tired of it all.  I want to focus on more positive things.
[15:04:56] <nakee> and I also think that fd.o as a community project should invest a bit more energy into checking what community think..
[15:05:00] <nakee> but it's just MOH
[15:05:18] <mharris> Don't you all get sick of hearing all of the negativity that surrounds the X Window System and related technology?
[15:05:22] <Seli> mharris: I'm not saying anything negative
[15:05:23] <mharris> I know I sure am.
[15:05:32] <mharris> Seli: I mean in general
[15:06:12] <mharris> By the way....  I use KDE.  ;o)
[15:06:17] <Seli> all I was trying to say all the time just was the the goal of fd.o are (to the public) unclear and fuzzy , and the linked blog entry said roughly about the same, there' no need to see flamewars in everything you see
[15:06:52] <mharris> Seli: I've got an idea which I'd like your opinion about.
[15:07:23] <Seli> ask
[15:07:26]  nakee finds it that he talks to the air
[15:07:34] <nakee> well I'm away cy'a later
[15:07:35] <mharris> What would you say to the following...   Would you be willing to put together a list of say the top 10 or 20 questions that you consider to be the most important questions about Freedesktop.org?
[15:08:04]  Signoff: aes ("the Matrix")
[15:08:06] <Seli> mharris: hehe, I was actually just about to ask you if it should be you or me mailing this to xdg@
[15:08:33] <mharris> If so, that would help myself and others to try to answer them to the best of our ability, and to put up an FAQ which hopefully can answer these questions in a clear manner and try to clarify any problems people have about understanding what freedesktop.org is, and what the projects hosted are, etc.
[15:09:11] <mharris> I am sure nobody would object to having an FAQ added which helps to clarify things.
[15:09:18] <Seli> mharris: ok, I will - is it ok if I mail kde-core-devel@ about it? I guess they'll have probably more question which I wouldn't find out
[15:10:11] <mharris> That would be fine.  Just please ask that the questions be written politely and professionally, in a manner that is suitable for a front page FAQ.
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