change of program icon

Tue Mar 4 10:13:29 UTC 2014

Hey,

On Tuesday, March 04, 2014 00:55:37 Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> El Dilluns, 3 de març de 2014, a les 22:47:06, Sebastian Kügler va escriure:
> > On Monday, March 03, 2014 19:27:29 Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> > > El Dilluns, 3 de març de 2014, a les 13:10:30, Sebastian Kügler va 
> escriure:
> > > The old icon didn't either (or that's what i think by looking at it), so
> > > no
> > > consistency problem is introduced.
> >
> > The old icon is much more "oxygeny" than the newly proposed one, so yes,
> > it
> > introduces a consistency problem.
> 
> Ok, i'll accept your opinion since i'm obviously lacking in artistic skills 
> > 
> > > I agree their opinion is interesting, and if they can provide a better
> > > icon
> > > that is oxygen-like Wolfgang is probably interested.
> > >
> > > But i disagree kde-artists should have the power to block an icon change
> > > they  didn't contribute over and that affects a single application?
> >
> > Saying that artists are only allowed to change the work they've committed
> > before is making sure we won't ever get anything done professionally in
> > that area.
> 
> Hmmm, ok, I may have expressed myself correctly, let me try to rephrase.
> 
> This icon is *not* an oxygen icon, it is an hi-color icon. Oxygen iconset
> can  still provide a better icon if the oxygen authors have time for it. As
> I said, I am sure Wolfgang would appreciate help with the icon, but
> ultimately, he is the maintainer of that application, so he gets to choose
> what application he ships (more over when it's an hi-color iconset icon, so
> he's not even claiming it to be oxygen-y).
> 
> Does this make more sense?
> 
> > > In my opinion this is amonsgt the maintainer of the application and the
> > > release-team (that is the one that enfonces the Freezes).
> >
> > Then your opinion means that the release-team can block, but cannot
> > explicitely allow.
> 
> Probably wrong wording on my side again. The Freezes are what creates the 
> blocks and the r-t gives exceptions on these freezes. This is how we have 
> always worked as far as i can remember.

I was confused, I didn't know Wolfgang maintained Kahjongg, that obviously 
changes the situation and my judgement of it.

> > > With my release-team hat, I say you can change it in KDE/4.13 since
> > > you've
> > > already changed it in master and I don't see a need to delay it.
> >
> > So we're back to doing willy-nilly art work without no concept whatsoever?

I realize (after being prodded, granted ;)) that this may sound offending: 
it's not meant that way. What I wanted to express is that doing single icons 
in a rather ad-hoc way leads to ... well, let's describe it as "KDE3 visuals", 
like a meal done by 5 cooks that don't talk to each other. :)

In any case: Wolfgang, please don't take offense.

> > Let's at least bring it up with the artists and give them a chance to chip
> > in. Nobody is talking about blocking anything, but outright ignoring
> > artists opinion (and diminishing their efforts this way) is not how we
> > should work together.
> 
> Why haven't you CC'ed them yet?

Good point, maybe I didn't want to step on anybody's toes.

> > My experience is that they're happy to help (modulo time problems, of
> > course), not 'happy to block', and they're usually the first ones to
> > acknowledge a visual problem -- which this clearly is.
> 
> Time problems are¿where? big, my experience is that i've never been able to 
> get an icon i needed from the artist team because they always had more
> important things to do (which i understand and i'm not complaining about)

Yes, we have a resource problem in our art department. We can't solve this by 
ignoring the artists' opinions, but ironically by involving them more. Lately, 
an artwork team is building up, which provides a good opportunity to re-think 
our modus operandi there.

> > My experience is also that by not even considering their opinion, or just
> > by not even choosing the right channel for this, we're making sure that
> > we're not a community welcoming to artists. Just because we *can* commit
> > anything doesn't mean we *should* ignore the expertise and input of
> > domain experts.
> You mean the artists don't have a representative on the release-team? Why? 
> They should. This way the release-team could function correctly in the art-
> related freezes.
> 
> > The issue at hand is by no means so urgent that we should skip over
> > meaningful ways of improving the situation, and we have more suitable
> > channels for that than the r-t list.
> 
> I disagree, as I said, this is about a Freeze exception and the r-t should
> be  the one to decide. If the artist have decided to not be part of the r-t
> or the r-t has not done enough to engage artists to be part of it, that's a
> different thing and it indeed needs fixing.

For most artists, reading all emails on r-t is a waste of time. I think in the 
(rather few) cases where we have such questions, involving them actively is 
actually a fine method.

> > Frankly, I also think we can do better than the proposed icon.
> 
> We can always do better. That's not the question, the question is if we can
> do  better in a reasonable time.

Sure, but is the problem really that pressing, given that the old icon was in 
place for what ... 6+ years?

That said I'm done complaining, the issue has been brought up with the 
artists, which is all I wanted. :)

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

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