Review Request 124005: Add week numbers to calendar - Part 2

Tue Jun 9 20:29:00 UTC 2015

> On June 4, 2015, 11:59 a.m., Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
> > applets/digital-clock/package/contents/config/main.xml, line 43
> > <https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/diff/1/?file=378756#file378756line43>
> >
> >     Why not make it default?
> >     
> >     Yours looks much more beautiful and tidy than the old 4.x version which always confused me.
> 
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
>     "Simple by default, powerful when needed" ;) It's not a feature everyone wants/needs, but it's there when they do.
> 
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
>     IMO, it should default to on, without an option. Weeknumbers are a pretty basic calendar feature, and most people will probably not even bother looking at the config dialogue, especially since it has never been there. It's simply a missing feature which we now add, it doesn't need to be optional.
>     
>     It's not "powerful when needed", it's "powerful when the user happens to find the option in the config dialog" this way, it's advertised nowhere that this feature is now available.
> 
> David Edmundson wrote:
>     I've never used them. I'm with Martin.
> 
> Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
>     I'd say bring in the usability team :)
> 
> David Edmundson wrote:
>     effectively done: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=299174#c13
>     comments 13 && 14 are Heiko and Thomas
> 
> Kai Uwe Broulik wrote:
>     Ok then
> 
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
>     > It's not "powerful when needed", it's "powerful when the user happens to find the option in the config dialog"
>     
>     But that's the case with about /all/ our "powerful when needed" features, isn't it? How else would you do "powerful when needed"? And it shouldn't be decoupled from the "Simple by default" part, which this really is.
>     
>     > it's advertised nowhere that this feature is now available.
>     
>     Come on now, we add manymanymany new features every release, portion of which is also off by default. That's what release notes are for.
>     
>     --
>     
>     Anywho, from the aformentioned bug, comment by Thomas Pfeiffer:
>     
>     "A configuration option would definitely be helpful here, because the week number is useless for many people, but essential for many others: In many companies, week numbers are used regularly for time planning, but for people not working in such companies they're indeed pretty much meaningless."
>     
>     One more interesting comment by someone:
>     
>     "I can not understand why you can configure the bejesus out of the clock, but the calendar is a immutable monolithic totem to somebody's preferred format." ...to which I have to really agree.
> 
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
>     I'm ok with that, I trust our usability people. In my perception, weeknumbers are an essential calendar feature, but apparently they're less used outside of "my world". :)
> 
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
>     While I have never worked in a company where week numbers matter, it's actually the most important feature I need a calender for. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but week numbers are pretty common in Germany - we even used them in school. So IMHO our usability team is wrong here.
> 
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
>     On contrary in Czech republic, many people even don't know that such thing exists at all. In here it's quite useless piece of information (unless in corporate environment).
> 
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
>     so it is a cultural thing - which means a config option makes sense. The question is what way it should be. For users who need it and expect it: will they find it? For users not needing it: will it hurt being shown?
>     
>     Every paper calender in Germany has the week number, so not having it seems from my German perspective extremely broken.
> 
> Martin Klapetek wrote:
>     I don't think we should be arguing this - it can be different per country and we'll never agree on it. And we have estabilished "simple by default, powerful when needed" vision kindofthing. So I think we should be following that. For many people (and I dare to say 50%) week numbers are "powerful" (ie. useless). For those that do need it, check that checkbox and be done.
>     
>     By the way, our clock does not show date by default and I do believe that date is actually way more important than week number.
> 
> Sebastian Kügler wrote:
>     Well, space is at a premium in the panel, so all kinds of assumptions that are true for the calendar do not hold in the panel.
> 
> Marco Martin wrote:
>     In Italy is not much common in calendars at home, however in office environments without week numbers you're screwed. in office environments I think is also more globally needed, less regarding to the locale.
>     
>     so +1 to just enable it
> 
> Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
>     Martin K. has explained it quite well: A config option makes sense in cases where something is important for some people, but useless (or actually harmful) for others, and neither of the two groups is small enough to be irrelevant. Often config options are introduced as a workaround for bad design or to avoid a design choice, but this is the poster case for an option, because user needs actually differ between individuals.
>     
>     Since Martin already quoted my opinion from over two years ago (which still stands), I don't have to repeat it.
>     We should not show a significant proportion of users a piece of information which they do not care about at all, without an option to hide it.
>     
>     I do not agree with Sebas that only few users would even find the option, either. Most of those users who don't care about week numbers probably won't ever see that checkbox, which is exactly what we want. If, however, a user misses the week numbers, why would he or she _not_ look if there is an option to turn it on before cursing KDE and uninstalling Plasma? And even if for some reason they wouldn't think of the possibility that there may be an option, why wouldn't they ask the search engine of their choice something like "plasma calendar week number"? In that case, of course, the first search result should be the release announcement that tells them that the option is there.
>     
>     Whether week numbers should be on or off by default, however, is a slightly more complex matter, as it depends on the target audience. Plasma 5 has not yet decided who their target users are, which is quite a bad situation for such an important piece of software. If the Plasma team had agreed upon a primary target persona, the decision would be easy: If that persona uses Plasma in a work context, week numbers should be shown by default. If the persona uses it only privately, they should not be shown by default.
>     
>     It's been years since last time I used a paper calendar (and even more years since last time I used a paper calendar intended for home use, not office/work use, which is what would be relevant here), so I can neither confirm nor deny the statement that all of them have week numbers. 
>     I have never met a person who said "Hey, let's book our holidays during week number 31!", however, or "Oh, I have to file my tax statement by the end of week 22!". That's not to say those people don't exist, but if they made up a large percentage of the population, I'm sure I'd have met some of them.
>     
>     So, this shows that it's time the Plasma team decides on a primary target persona, and fast. Without a target audience, flipping a coin would be as good a decision process as any.
> 
> Martin Gräßlin wrote:
>     > why wouldn't they ask the search engine of their choice something like "plasma calendar week number"?
>     
>     because they are real users. These are enterprise users we talk about, users who have no clue about the system they are using, who are forced to use it. Users who would not even try to check for it. Followed the Limux discussions last year - these kind of users. I'm really worried that we put those users aside and think we put the priorities wrong in this case. But I won't argue to death about it.

On the other hand such enterprise systems are always set up _and_ maintained by someone knowledgeable. There's always that IT guy ("Hello IT...") and simple request to that guy will fix it, if it's indeed needed.

---

Since we can't reach a clear conclusion, I'll take this as a maintainer's decision then.

- Martin

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On June 4, 2015, 11:55 a.m., Martin Klapetek wrote:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
> https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> (Updated June 4, 2015, 11:55 a.m.)
> 
> 
> Review request for Plasma.
> 
> 
> Repository: plasma-workspace
> 
> 
> Description
> -------
> 
> One of the most requested features for Plasma5. This is the applet's part (basically just the config).
> 
> See https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124004/ for part 1 and screenshot.
> 
> Another part will be the (standalone) Calendar applet.
> 
> 
> Diffs
> -----
> 
>   applets/digital-clock/package/contents/config/main.xml 5237160 
>   applets/digital-clock/package/contents/ui/CalendarView.qml b5a080b 
>   applets/digital-clock/package/contents/ui/configAppearance.qml 669b1cc 
> 
> Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/124005/diff/
> 
> 
> Testing
> -------
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin Klapetek
> 
>

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