[Panel-devel] Plasma Meeting Log

[Alexander Wiedenbruch]

Hi there,

attached is the log from the meeting.

A summary can be found at http://developernew.kde.org/Projects/plasma/Tasks
-------------- next part --------------
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:04:52] <aseigo>	ok... i thought i'd start with a really quick "what is the point of plasma" and then we start in on the technical discussions and even figure out some tasks
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:05:00] <aseigo>	ervin: you never just lurk, baby ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:05:23] <aseigo>	so.. why this silly project?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:05:39] <Bille>	dramatic tension?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:05:43] <aseigo>	essentially i'm tired of a desktop shell that doesn't do anything for me but occassionally get in my way and expose bugs
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:05:51] <aseigo>	Bille: oh sure, steal the punchline ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:06:32] <aseigo>	as importantly, though, i'm equally tired of not having a good reason for people to use the kde workspace
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:06:55] <aseigo>	what is the difference between windows, macos, gnome and kde? it's like four bands all doing the same cover tune
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:07:00] Nickname	nael__ nennt sich jetzt nael.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:07:13] 	 * ruphy will take care of updating the wiki when necessary to add tasks that will pop out
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:07:17] <aseigo>	we need an amarok of the desktop so people go "oh. -that's- why"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:07:24] <ervin>	all claiming to have the best framework :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:07:51] <aseigo>	ervin: yeah, except the framework is never exposed in the workspace really, is it? it's all in the applications. which is ok, but... yeah.. where for art thou, desktop?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:08:16] <aseigo>	so ... for those who aren't familiar with the basic concepts:
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:08:25] <aseigo>	desktop layer and panels are in the same process
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:08:43] <[mX]>	it's probably also important to note that none of them are really designed in such a way that they can grow with developments in usability very easily..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:08:49] <aseigo>	everything is a widget (or, as somehow caught on, "plasmoid") ... from the launcher buttons to full on widgets and mini-apps
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:08:57] <aseigo>	[mX]: indeed.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:09:24] <aseigo>	the desktop will not be designed around showing the contents of a folder. if the user wants that, they can have a full screen plasmoid that lists the contents of a directory.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:09:49] <aseigo>	but the desktop should be equally suited to having a media center experience displayed
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:10:50] <aseigo>	besides components, components, components, the other overriding principle needs to be organics: this look pretty, act naturally and there are no surprises .. dragging an object from a panel to the desktop works, pulling the desktop in front of windows with a key combo needs to work... etc
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:11:01] <aseigo>	ok, that's the 5 minute refresher course. =P
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:11:08] <aseigo>	down to details...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:11:28] <aseigo>	first thing that needs to happen, and which is almost done, is getting kdesktop out of the way
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:11:41] <aseigo>	everything but the autostart stuff has been moved out and into krunner
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:12:15] <Bille>	aseigo: remind us what the autostart stuff does - executes share/autostart?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:12:35] <aseigo>	krunner itself needs to be completed, which means finishing the launcher modules (shell, sycoca and strigi currently), providing a plugin interface so people can mess it up if they want with new runners ;) and integration of the task list via ksysguard's new library
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:12:43] <aseigo>	Bille: ah... good question.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:13:15] <aseigo>	kdesktop used to open every file in KGlobalSettings::autostartPath() (~/.kde/Autostart by default)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:13:17] <Bille>	as i suspect i'm not the only one here who only goes in kdebase/kicker when absolutely necessary
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:13:29] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, krunner is a sort of K's deamon manager?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:13:30] <aseigo>	we -also- have share/autostart which cascades like all other kde resources
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:13:59] Betreten	_rikrd_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=rikrd at 66.red-62-57-44.user.auna.net).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:14:00] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: kded is for desktop services; krunner is for desktop services that don't belong with the desktop/panels workspace itself
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:14:18] <aseigo>	we probably do want/need to re-examine how we're doing autostart to some extent.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:14:37] <ervin>	question: what is supposed to be krunner exactly? replace the "execute..." dialog of kdesktop? from your description it seems it does more
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:14:39] <aseigo>	the difference between share/autostart and Autostart is that the former can only have .desktop files in it; the latter can have regular files in it as well
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:14:56] <Pinaraf>	ervin: it could also replace katapult for instance
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:01] <aseigo>	this seems a bit out of place to me. .. and in any case, autostart needs to be moved into ksmserver
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:06] <aseigo>	the kdesktop bits ayways
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:07] <coolo>	ervin: it does screensaver too for example
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:12] <aseigo>	and perhaps Autostart depricated
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:27] <aseigo>	ervin: screensaver, task list, run dialog, app startup notification
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:42] <coolo>	aseigo: I'd do that, as the .desktop files are more gneric anyway - for example they allow OnlyShowIn=KDE
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:54] <aseigo>	none of these things belong in the desktop layer because they need to be available even when the desktop isn't or gets mucked up
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:15:59] <ervin>	basically, the desktop services that can't be in kdesktop anymore since we killed it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:16:01] <aseigo>	coolo: yeah ...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:16:20] <Pinaraf>	aseigo: only one folder for autostart is really better, but making .desktop files mandatory is an issue for some users too lazy to create a .desktop file when they only want to run a simple script at startup
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:16:33] <aseigo>	ervin: yes. though it's not quite a "just because" as that... not having a run dialog because you managed to xkill kdesktop sucks in kde =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:16:55] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: there's an autostart control panel already going into kdereview so there will be a gui for it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:16:56] <ervin>	sure, that's for the run dialog part
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:17:06] <ervin>	screensaver and what not are less critical
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:17:35] <aseigo>	well, the task list will actually show up quickly now and not have a crappy appearance...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:17:39] <aseigo>	ah, i should probably cover that too...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:17:49] <aseigo>	ksysguard, thanks to tapsell, has largely been converted into a library
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:18:19] <aseigo>	we caught some time last week to figure out what to do with that and we decided on something similar to the macos approach:
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:18:55] <aseigo>	krunner will, on demand, popup a window showing the task list... there'll be a "more.." link at the bottom which will expand to show a tab widget containing a few pre-defined sheets: memory, network, cpu, etc...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:19:14] <pinotree>	isn't that an overkill for krunner?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:19:14] <aseigo>	all of that, except popping up the dialog and the more widget, is provided by ksysguard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:19:36] <aseigo>	pinotree: it's less overkill than what we have right now... currently the task list actually starts up ksysguard-the-app
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:19:36] <Bille>	is that like the XP ctrl-alt-delete task manager dialog?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:19:42] <aseigo>	Bille: right...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:20:06] <Bille>	ok, so is this distinct from the alt-tab task switcher...?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:20:20] <WindowsUninstall>	Bille, I hope yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:20:30] <barismetin>	question: are the plasmoids showing a task/window list going to query krunner also?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:20:33] <fredrikh>	Bille: alt-tab is handled by kwin
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:02] <ruphy>	aseigo, and what app will manage and receive all the shortcuts to show krunner's stuff?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:06] <WindowsUninstall>	Bille, if you replace the window manager you replace also the alt+tab window
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:14] <Bille>	we may want to reconsider that, if we want everything to be organic.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:32] <aseigo>	http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/51/1079181142602034/www.info.apple.com/images/kbase/107918/107918_1.jpg
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:35] <aseigo>	there's the mac os one
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:40] <aseigo>	ruphy: krunner
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:44] <ruphy>	Bille, but that's just a wm-specific stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:21:56] <aseigo>	ruphy: it registers global keyboard shortcuts just as kdesktop does
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:22:18] <ruphy>	aseigo, ok, fine
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:22:37] <aseigo>	so that's one set of tasks.. and then we can kill kdesktop
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:22:53] 	 * coolo drops a tear
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:01] <fredrikh>	Bille: if we want to use composite to improve task switching, it's a lot easier to do that in the composite manager
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:05] <aseigo>	coolo: maybe we can have a 21 gun salute =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:29] <Bille>	fredrikh: ok. it was just a thought.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:31] <WindowsUninstall>	fredrikh, it's a kwin related things
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:32] <ruphy>	aseigo, so? what dhould I add to the wiki's task list? 'kill the last bits of kdesktop' and 'complete krunner'?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:23:45] <fredrikh>	WindowsUninstall: right, and kwin is the composite manager
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:24:17] <aseigo>	ruphy: perhaps a bit more detailed .. e.g. autostart -> ksmserver, merge Autostart with share/autostart functionality; complete runner classes in krunner; integrate ksysguard's process table
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:24:31] <ruphy>	ok then
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:24:35] 	 * ruphy writes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:24:38] <WindowsUninstall>	fredrikh, (Also we should remember that KDE 4 should work well also with beryl)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:25:01] 	 * aseigo rolls his eyes at beryl
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:25:15] <aseigo>	so now without a desktop ... we get to start working on a replacement for that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:25:41] <aseigo>	i figure that if we work on that first we can get to replacing the panels next .. one step at a time, ameoba like
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:25:52] <[mX]>	you know I've been kinda worried about the issue of qgv not really supporting embedded widgets
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:05] <aseigo>	which means 3 parts: backgrounds, zooming and containers, widgets
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:06] <Bille>	yes, we need some structure for this void of amorphous, omnipotent widgets.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:06] <[mX]>	since we're going to be using it pretty intensely right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:07] Beenden	wotan_ hat den Server verlassen ("CGI:IRC").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:10] Betreten	Crono_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=crono at dslnet.85-22-4.ip212.dokom.de).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:19] <aseigo>	[mX]: yeah. qgv is a major concern at the moment actually
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:33] <[mX]>	hence there's going to be a certain amount of dupe when we want say a button in plasma
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:48] <aseigo>	[mX]: not only is the widget embedding not there yet, it's not particularly swift if you run it in fullscreen and have things doing lots of repaints
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:26:58] <Bille>	is "QGV vs trad widgets" an open question?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:02] <[mX]>	yeah that was the second issue :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:15] <aseigo>	QGV vs KBoard vs QPainter.. yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:21] <aseigo>	it's an open question
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:29] <pinotree>	kboard?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:29] <wirr>	aseigo: i ported SuperKaramba to QGV and implemented a global mode, so that all themes are in one View
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:30] <esben>	qgv=QGrpahicsView?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:32] <aseigo>	i haven't played with KBoard at all yet, which i really need to..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:33] <aseigo>	esben: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:36] <pinotree>	isn't that a gaming application?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:54] <aseigo>	pinotree: it's a lighter canvas as qgv was too heavy and complex for many of the games
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:27:59] <aseigo>	er, than qgv
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:28:11] <coolo>	pinotree: it's a gaming platform initially though
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:28:13] <aseigo>	wirr: how'd that go?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:28:19] 	 * aseigo is also concerned with z order and mouse interaction handling in qgv
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:04] <wirr>	aseigo: well, the bigest problem is moving items around, that's pretty slow because of the update triggering
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:19] <coolo>	aseigo: it works fine with kpat :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:25] <wirr>	otherwise it works perfectly fine
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:34] <Bille>	will everything be in one root window, or will Plasma have separate windows for say the panel?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:49] <aseigo>	wirr: the widgets used in sk are limited to text input and clickable areas, right?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:56] <ruphy>	aseigo, I was porting kbattleship to QGV, it's a bit different mechanism from the normal tracing in a qwidget, but not so complicated
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:29:59] <[mX]>	and graphs
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:07] <wirr>	aseigo: we also have graphs, meters, images
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:09] <coolo>	Bille: the goal is to have it possible to have everything everywhere.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:09] <aseigo>	Bille: yes, we have to have separate windows for the panels as they need to float above other windows independant of the desktop
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:15] <wirr>	meters=bar
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:19] <aseigo>	wirr: right, but those are all drawn directly using qpainter, right?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:21] <Bille>	aseigo: yes, that's what i was concerned about.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:23] <aseigo>	wirr: e.g. they aren't qwidgets
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:25] <wirr>	aseigo: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:33] <coolo>	Bille: think fluid panels
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:36] <Pinaraf>	a problem with superkaramba currently is that when a crash occurs in one of the themes, superkaramba can't do anything
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:30:41] <Pinaraf>	(crash or any other kind of failure)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:05] <wirr>	Pinaraf: that's why i strongly advise threading for the bindings
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:08] <Bille>	coolo: i like the polymorphous perversity model too.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:09] <Pinaraf>	it may be interesting to look at languages other than python (or other python interpreters)...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:18] <[mX]>	well lets talk about what we're going to use to paint all this stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:24] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: we'll get to scripting in a bit
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:25] <[mX]>	(coherent convo here :) )
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:25] <ervin>	who said perversity?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:34] <Pinaraf>	wirr: what can a separated thread do against a segfault ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:45] <coolo>	ervin: Bille
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:46] <[mX]>	like what our requirements are, what the different options provide us etc
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:50] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: scripts shouldn't segfault
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:31:56] <Pinaraf>	aseigo: but they can.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:01] <aseigo>	wirr: Pinaraf: the challenge with threads is that painting still has to happen in the main thread
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:02] <WindowsUninstall>	Pinaraf, We should enable users to write applets in any language that they want use
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:04] <ervin>	coolo: he always has the right word :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:07] <wirr>	Pinaraf: SK currently detects all possible erros
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:19] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: no; the interpreter can but not the scripts themselves. this limits exposure dramatically
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:22] Betreten	plx hat den Kanal betreten (n=plx at 87-196-94-223.net.novis.pt).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:24] Betreten	Nookie^ hat den Kanal betreten (n=dsa at h39n2fls35o982.telia.com).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:25] <wirr>	aseigo: yes, i was working on that too and it's lot of work
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:28] <Nookie^>	ereslibre are u there?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:30] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: the worst a script can do is take excessive cpu and that's trappable
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:37] <wirr>	very call has to be mapped to the gui thread
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:41] <ereslibre>	Nookie^: yup
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:43] <Nookie^>	ereslibre i recived the letter from peter penz
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:48] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: c.f. konqueror's "this script is taking forever. want to stop it?" dialog
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:56] <Pinaraf>	aseigo: I believed superkaramba wasn't launching the scripts in a separate process
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:32:57] <aseigo>	wirr: yep
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:04] <aseigo>	Pinaraf: that's correct
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:04] <pinotree>	aseigo: what about a python sctipt doing eg 0 / 0 ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:15] <wirr>	bbl
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:16] <Nookie^>	ereslibre i cant... im not registered on freenode
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:18] <Pinaraf>	pinotree: ho, that's a python exception, nothing else
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:20] <Nookie^>	can u come to gmail
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:21] <aseigo>	pinotree: that should raise a script exception not crash
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:23] <Nookie^>	we can talk there
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:26] <aseigo>	anyways.. not scripting
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:29] <aseigo>	drawing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:35] <aseigo>	scripting in a while.. after the drawing =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:37] <Pinaraf>	it's far less dangerous than a python script importing a module segfaulting
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:33:44] <[mX]>	...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:34:11] <aseigo>	perhaps we can brainstorm required/desired features for the desktop layer first.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:34:14] <aseigo>	here are mine:
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:34:24] <dipesh_work>	oh, just the moment I realized taht we are already past 1900.. :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:34:27] <aseigo>	the ability to group plasmoids together into containers
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:34:59] <ervin>	define containers? a block of glued plasmoids?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:04] <fredrikh>	will containers be freely movable?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:06] <aseigo>	the ability to zoom in and out so one can have many containers, zoom back, click/pan, zoom back in ... voila multiple desktop layouts for multiple projects
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:09] <aseigo>	fredrikh: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:31] <Bille>	the problem sounds related to our existing window management experience, eg smart borders
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:41] <aseigo>	ervin: yes... at the most basic a visual outline around a set of plasmoids so you can drag them around together, give them a collective name, etc...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:35:51] <ervin>	ok
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:10] <fredrikh>	aseigo: then the question is, how do you drag a plasmoid loose from a container?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:11] <WindowsUninstall>	also should be usefull a kind of virtual desktop where to place plasmoids and appears when i press a button
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:15] <aseigo>	so the desktop becomes sort of like a drawing space for little collections of tools (launchers, plasmoids, active icons)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:22] <aseigo>	fredrikh: grab the plasmoid itself and drag it out
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:26] 	 * Bille nods
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:37] <fredrikh>	aseigo: so containers themselves aren't draggable?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:40] <aseigo>	the simple user will just plop icons and what not on the desktop
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:44] <ruphy>	brainstorming += a complete d&d stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:48] <aseigo>	fredrikh: yes. click outside a plasmoid but inside a contianer
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:36:59] <aseigo>	ruphy: such as?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:12] <Nookie^>	ereslibre: i have added u..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:14] <Nookie^>	hmm
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:29] <fredrikh>	i'm having trouble visualizing that... it seems to me that we'll end up with some of the same problems we have now with kicker
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:37] <ervin>	you probably need to have two separate modes then, one for editing the workspace another one when using
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:39] <aseigo>	fredrikh: which are?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:40] <pinheiro>	plasmoids should be apble to conect them selfs to apps and we might type text in them so they in some situtions were extremy eycandy is needed could replace apps windows
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:50] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, will be desktop's icons plasmoids?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:50] <ervin>	otherwise I can see from here people moving stuff by mistake
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:53] <aseigo>	ervin: why?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:37:57] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:01] <ervin>	(like the locked mode on kicker)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:03] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:07] <fredrikh>	aseigo: i'm thinking of the applet handles, the small arrows etc.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:08] <barismetin>	ervin: something like E17?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:12] <WindowsUninstall>	then we can have smart and scriptable icons
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:18] <[mX]>	well lock the group if you don't want to move it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:24] <[mX]>	somewhat like SK does now
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:25] <fredrikh>	aseigo: the problem of getting to the context menu when there's no empty space
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:41] Betreten	d1-1 hat den Kanal betreten (n=d1-1 at bhorgan.plus.com).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:38:43] <fredrikh>	aseigo: the kicker context menu i mean, as opposed to the applet one
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:02] <aseigo>	getting to the context menu will be simpler when everything is the same type of object. that's the problem we have in kicker: too many independent object types
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:06] Betreten	vicks hat den Kanal betreten (n=vicks at c-ede2e455.04-181-6e6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:16] <dirk>	fredrikh: hopefully the plasma desktop will not have a context menu itself
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:40] <[mX]>	well these are all design decisions, does anyone think we should try to figure out what framework we are going to actually draw all this junk? :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:41] <ervin>	barismetin: no idea =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:44] <Nookie^>	ereslibre do u see im writing yo u now
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:39:59] Beenden	plx_ hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:02] <aseigo>	i'm also not particularly afraid of having a set of control buttons on the desktop layer itself if need be...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:17] <[mX]>	aseigo: right, we had discussed "editing mode"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:20] <ruphy>	aseigo, you can drag whatever on it and something predictable happens... like, as you said at the akademy talk, if you drag a mail folder on it, a plasmoid will take care of displaying unread e-mails.. or if you drag a log file, another plasmoids activates that does something similar to 'tail -F <filename>'..... or such
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:20] Betreten	emilsedgh hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 87.247.163.133).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:22] <barismetin>	ervin: it has the editing mode you mentioned :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:28] <Bille>	i think we should have a Keep The UI Clean commandment, even if we don't know how to do that yet.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:28] <[mX]>	that, I think, is kinda ripped from e17
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:29] <fredrikh>	aseigo: but that's what i'm having trouble visualizing... if a container is just a series of connected plasmoids, how do you click on the container if you want to drag it, without clicking on one of the plasmoids
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:51] <aseigo>	ruphy: ah, yes.. ok, that belongs in the plasmoids. the desktop layer only needs to take care of managing collections of such things...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:54] <ruphy>	aseigo, there is much you can do with d&d
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:40:57] <rabauke>	pinheiro: I like the idea of plasmoids being attached to "normal" windows, in order for them to be plug-ins that communicate with the application and can be developed seperatly. E.g. a kopete plasmoid that just shows a bigger buddy-icon when attached to a chat-window.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:41:06] <fredrikh>	or will the container be larger than the sum of the plasmoids?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:41:21] <[mX]>	fredrikh: well yeah, margin + spacing should always give you something to click
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:41:25] <pinheiro>	rabauke:  kopete is the app i had im mind
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:41:34] <fredrikh>	[mX]: yeah
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:41:44] <aseigo>	fredrikh: how do you do that in a drawing app? there will always be an exposed area, even if it is just the border
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:42:13] <aseigo>	fredrikh: groups will be completely optional as well. if you don't need them (e.g. you have no need or desire for greater categorization) you don't need to use them
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:42:16] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, Should be nice to manage plasmoids by dbus. Then we can tell to kmail to shows unreaded mails as icons on desktop
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:42:17] <aseigo>	but groups should be able to:
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:42:32] <aseigo>	- resolve to a simple text line when zoomed out (abstraction)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:43:12] <aseigo>	- be collapsable (to get them out of the way; think of a trash group which shows a trash bin when collapsed and a file listing when expanded that points to trash:/)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:43:21] Beenden	emilsedgh hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:43:26] <aseigo>	- namable, which implies findable by name
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:43:59] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: you never worked on icons layout code, right?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:06] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: dynamic icons are a pure nightmare
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:07] <aseigo>	- savable/restorable ... this is how we'll enable things like "turn my desktop into a pvr control center for the evening"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:12] <WindowsUninstall>	coolo, realy?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:22] <WindowsUninstall>	coolo, it seems a good idea
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:23] <rabauke>	so does it sound like a sensible feature to have plasmoids that are like extras for certain application-windows and are attached to them and not the desktop?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:44:41] <barismetin>	aseigo: can we list the responsibilities of each component later on? which component will provide the drawing capabilities on desktop (libplasma?)? which component are we going to query for a task/window list (krunner?)? and what else?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:01] <aseigo>	rabauke: given that most of them will be loadable components, there's no reason that couldn't or shouldn't happen. but that's a few steps away
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:07] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: you need a dedicated area for such dynamic icons or your layouting becomes a mess as it's never clear which icons are supposed to stay where they are and which one can be moved to free space for more icons
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:10] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, Also to place groups in tabs should be nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:16] <suslik>	would Plasmoids be equally application-like entities, with DBUS clients and all, or they will be attached to the mother-app, and suck on the resources there?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:21] <aseigo>	barismetin: sure... we've already done that for krunner
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:32] <[mX]>	WindowsUninstall: that's handled by the abstraction he mentioned in the first point
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:38] <WindowsUninstall>	ok
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:45:40] <aseigo>	the desktop layer code will hopefully be used for the panels as well
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:46:11] <aseigo>	it will live in plasma, not libplasma, and needs to have the zooming/grouping capabilities plus the ability to composite everything together nicely with a cute background
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:46:40] Betreten	emilsedgh hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 87.247.163.133).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:46:41] <aseigo>	e.g. it's not a particularly advanced concept. it's just a bit more flexible than we're used to on the desktop and more like a charting/drawing app
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:46:54] <[mX]>	suslik: my understanding is they will all be handled in the plasma process by an AppletManager
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:47:00] 	 * aseigo notes that people can be boring too and just list ~/Desktop with a full screen plasmoid if they end up wanting to
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:47:36] <aseigo>	suslik: they can expose themselves to dbus.. they will all be in-process however... otherwise drawing is just too hard to coordinate
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:47:38] <Bille>	we need to be able to reimplement kde 3's desktop/panel in terms of plasma for the boring people.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:47:46] <aseigo>	Bille: right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:48:17] <aseigo>	the trick is to make that isn't the only use case possible =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:48:24] <Bille>	aye
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:48:46] Verlassen	seele hat den Kanal verlassen.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:48:56] <aseigo>	ruphy: so, can you put that on the wiki about the desktop layer: a widget with background painting, zooming, and collections of objects (which will be plasmoids, but that's another topic)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:49:25] <ruphy>	ok dude
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:49:30] <Bille>	so Task: create a framework to describe all these structures and composite objects...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:49:37] <aseigo>	ruphy: personally i consider the background painting and the zooming/grouping to be separate tasks...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:49:58] <aseigo>	ruphy: since one is about showing a picture the other is about manipulating objects
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:04] <aseigo>	Bille: yep
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:13] <Bille>	aseigo: you haven't expounded on 'zooming' much
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:25] <Bille>	what's it for, besides exposé ?]
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:32] <ruphy>	plasmoid should also be placed in a smart way, and moved smartly (aka, in an usable/fashionable way). They should probably tend to place themselves in an ordered grid, even when moving, so that the desktop won't end up in a totally disordered set of objects. anyway, minor problem, and probably still a few steps away ;-)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:34] <aseigo>	ah. zooming is simple; it's stolen right from the the humane software project
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:43] <dirk>	Bille: to be able to soom into a group of plasmoids?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:52] Betreten	Crono hat den Kanal betreten (n=crono at dslnet.85-22-8.ip63.dokom.de).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:53] <aseigo>	the idea is that our screens are small, but we can pan and zoom around in a space
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:50:53] <WindowsUninstall>	I agree with ruphy
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:15] <aseigo>	so let the user through crap around and zoom in and out to view things in lower or great detail and enjoy a larger virtual space
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:18] <WindowsUninstall>	I hate to see applet that hide icons
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:29] <aseigo>	think google maps interface for the desktop layer =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:34] <Bille>	aseigo: like an RTS game?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:52] <aseigo>	Bille: right.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:57] <suslik>	ruphy: there are some quite deformed , non-rectangular widgets - no way to use grid
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:51:58] <Bille>	nice.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:52:02] <[mX]>	which is something qgv would be good for, as it supports that stuff out of the box
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:52:14] <aseigo>	[mX]: right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:52:55] <ereslibre>	suslik, i believe at the end deformed shapes, is a strange shape drawn into a rect
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:52:57] <aseigo>	ah, and all of this can be ugly like sin to start with
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:53:03] <ervin>	current, downsides are the widget embedding and performances though
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:53:17] <aseigo>	theming will happen later with the artists once we have something they can see
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:53:27] <aseigo>	ervin: correct. the widget embedding is particularly alarming
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:53:57] <aseigo>	technically, i don't think we need anything more than a 2D surface
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:54:11] <ervin>	well it's particularly difficult since you'd expect to be able to interact with them even in a transformed space
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:54:24] <coolo>	[mX]: just that qgv becomes unbearably slow as soon as you use that feature ;(
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:54:24] <aseigo>	dropping can simply move items out of the way... overlap isn't necessary to support
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:54:39] <[mX]>	very true
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:06] <dirk>	so accidental dropping changes your arrangement?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:11] <WindowsUninstall>	ereslibre, The important thing is to deny overlapping applet and to help users
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:24] <WindowsUninstall>	to dispose they in a smart way
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:27] <[mX]>	well I mean the question really is do we start using qgv and try to push tt to beef up performance, or actually try to write our own framework for drawing this stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:29] <ereslibre>	WindowsUninstall, agree
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:40] <suslik>	if you deny overlap, transparent shapes would mbe of no use.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:55:49] <aseigo>	ervin: there are a couple of options.. one is provide only a couple of zoom levels, e.g. alternate between "full size and interaction enabled" and "zoomed out showing draggable objects that you can't interact with"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:56:24] <WindowsUninstall>	ereslibre, We can imagine iregular shapes as a sum of small square
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:56:24] <aseigo>	ervin: the other option is to make it freely zoomable and scale the plasmoids... which is indeed trickier
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:56:26] <ereslibre>	suslik, i dont think so. strange shapes helps things to be cooler for example, or not just strange shapes, but rounded rects
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:56:30] <WindowsUninstall>	*irregular
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:56:57] <aseigo>	suslik: during dragging it's useful; to show the background through it is also useful...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:12] <piacentini>	coolo: agreed, specially under X. I would say that zoomed qgviews are unusable in practical terms for the user cases explained by aseigo.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:17] <aseigo>	but yes, preventing overlap means that drawing should be able to stay a bit faster since we only have background+1 object to compose
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:18] Beenden	emilsedgh hat den Server verlassen (Nick collision from services.).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:28] Betreten	emilsedgh hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 87.247.163.154).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:34] Betreten	gigabytes hat den Kanal betreten (n=nicola at host6-173-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:37] <gigabytes>	hello
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:43] <WindowsUninstall>	Can we create svg plasmoids?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:48] <[mX]>	sure
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:57:51] <Bille>	WindowsUninstall: that's the plan
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:03] <aseigo>	i'd love to use qgv. i'm just really concerned given my experimenting with it that we'll run into resource problems and flexibility issues w/regards to showing widgets
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:12] <coolo>	piacentini: actually - I wouldn't say that. I got a pretty cool new workstation with a pretty nifty nvidia card and with the binary driver kpat flies :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:12] <ervin>	aseigo: I choose the trickier option then :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:19] <esben>	fonts and zooming is going to be fun... do the text scale or rewrap? THough I suppose that isn't interesting just yet
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:21] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: yes, bitmaps will be disallowed actually
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:31] <coolo>	piacentini: just on 99.9% of all X installations it sucks
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:36] <dipesh_work>	will there be a "trayicon" replacment? so, quick access to apps + some simple visible feedback (kmail like mail counter, k3b progress, etc.) without running a full own app? propably some default gadget/shape (an app is able to customize with e.g. an own icon + control via dbus or ask to load lib-xyz and call function-zyx each n seconds to show some value) to don't have again m small running apps for just some basic feedback (wasn't that the result of
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:36] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, very nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:37] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: it's pretty hard to get proper zooming without vector graphics
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:38] <ervin>	aseigo: anyway to be sure it'll stay this way or improve?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:40] <piacentini>	coolo: :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:58:53] <aseigo>	dipesh_work: that's after the basic plasmoids work is done
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:01] <ervin>	otherwise we'll probably look silly if suddenly it starts to do what we expect from it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:06] <fredrikh>	aseigo: embedding a widget in qgv would probably depend on composite
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:07] <[mX]>	aseigo: well I say we go with our own painting framework then, forget about kboard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:27] <[mX]>	I mean we have specific needs, and we can optimize to that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:41] <aseigo>	ervin: i need to speak with the boys at TT ... but i'm not optimistic. 4.3 is already pretty well feature frozen at this point
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [19:59:54] <piacentini>	[mX - kboard is also known as KGameCanvas, and already in KDE, so customize it if you need it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:02] <wirr>	why not use QGV as a base for our improvements?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:04] <ereslibre>	aseigo, so we can assume this is going to be done with qgv ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:13] <ereslibre>	the painting i mean
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:14] <aseigo>	[mX]: as much as that frightens me, i think that's the sane way to go. it's probably easier to go from that to qgv if we keep the design clean enough than the other way around
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:17] <gigabytes>	what is qgv?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:23] <[mX]>	exactly
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:24] <aseigo>	gigabytes: qgraphicsview
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:25] <ereslibre>	gigabytes, qgraphicsview
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:28] <piacentini>	aseigo: it would be nice if this would lead to QGV getting better and better, but I agree this needs to be checked with TT
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:32] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, Then If we use svg we should mantain the desktop very lightweight
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:34] <ervin>	aseigo: more performances doesn't mean more features (ok, that doesn't address the widget embedding)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:36] <gigabytes>	aseigo: that in qt 4.2 ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:48] Beenden	michal_ hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:00:50] <aseigo>	wirr: because the improvements we need would mean patching Qt
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:02] <wirr>	hmm
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:13] Nickname	nielsvm|eating nennt sich jetzt nielsvm.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:13] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, I don't want to let 50 % of my ram only to the desktop :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:25] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: well, svg's still need to be rendered (that's not particularly fast) and they do end up as bitmaps somewhere =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:26] Beenden	emilsedgh hat den Server verlassen (Nick collision from services.).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:44] <pinheiro>	yep
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:01:55] Betreten	emilsedgh_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 85.15.15.75).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:06] <aseigo>	ervin: this is why it's still an open question. i am really not sure which way to go on it. qgv means betting on TT making it kick ass
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:17] <aseigo>	ervin: it also means that in the short term we deal with the widget limitation.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:23] <aseigo>	ervin: and possibly the long term.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:24] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, ok. we should this in the better way
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:26] <ruphy>	1hr of meeting right now
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:30] <aseigo>	ruphy: thanks...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:36] <esben>	How heavily can our SVG renderers use OpenGL? If it is all done as polygons and shaders, it has the potential to be faster than bitmaps
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:42] <ruphy>	aseigo, =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:02:45] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, ok. we should *do this in the better way
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:03:10] <aseigo>	esben: depends on your card's drivers mostly, and the state of arthur on any given day (it regresses and progresses over time)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:03:17] <[mX]>	piacentini: where does kgamecanvas live right now? in kdegames?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:03:28] <piacentini>	mX: kdegames/libkdegames
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:03:50] <[mX]>	danke
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:03:59] <esben>	In that case, I think going SVG with an OpenGL background would be the future.. even embedded gfx chips have decent OpenGL these days
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:01] <aseigo>	the good news is that i'm in oslo at the end of march
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:09] <rabauke>	Would it be ossible to have e.g. k3b at full-screen with all options and GUI elements and then zoom-out which lets some details disappear, e.g. file lists etc and just has a field to drop files into and buttons for starting to burn. if one zooms out further the buttons dissappear and one just sees the burn-progress with some statistics. finally, zooming out even further results in just a small tray icon somewhere on the desktop.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:09] <rabauke>	that way every application could be zoomed out to be as small as a tray-icon and as big and detailed as a full-screen app, depending on the level of details/info/functionality the user needs.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:44] <aseigo>	so if there's a qgv based implementation that does the zooming, grouping, etc.. even of just random svg's ('dummy plasmoids') and it sucks ass i can show them this stuff in person
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:47] <aseigo>	i find that to be most effective
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:04:55] Beenden	gigabytes hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:03] <aseigo>	rabauke: that's out of scope for plasma
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:10] <aseigo>	rabauke: different part of the windowing system =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:16] <piacentini>	aseigo: as someone who is struggling with this very question since September (to QGV or not to QGV?), I would say that without more commitmend from TT it is risky to simply base plasma on it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:34] <aseigo>	piacentini: yeah. so is writing a system from scratch
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:36] <aseigo>	hm..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:37] 	 * aseigo pondres
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:49] <piacentini>	but on the other hand, it can lead to it finally being finished
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:52] <[mX]>	well not to mention the widget placement stuff, the only way to do it currently is manually move the widgets
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:05:59] <piacentini>	with all rough edges smoothed
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:12] <rabauke>	aseigo: :( what component would that then be? kwin?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:27] <barismetin>	"As for embedding widgets, that will never be supported. QWidget is simply incompatible with the canvas design; for one thing, it’s not transformable." -- http://qtdeveloper.net/archives/2006/05/01/a-graphicsview-sneak-peek/
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:29] <suslik>	Plasmoid Group / Container can be a Plasma applet itself, with a background of sort.. and containing Plasmoids in it. Background +1 Plasmoid compositing sounds juts too wimpy. (thinking aloud)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:31] <aseigo>	rabauke: combinaton of kwin and making applications aware of composition effects
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:34] <ruphy>	so... probably this point (what to use) is for the next meeting, after have checked with the TT guys, right? it seems that we all agree on the fact that we'd love to use QGV, altough it's tricky taking this decision right now...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:36] Beenden	emilsedgh_ hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:56] <aseigo>	suslik: yes, it certainly could be.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:06:59] <piacentini>	ruphy: agreed
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:07:24] <aseigo>	suslik: it may be more efficient to just make them "first class" objects of the desktop layer, however, to avoid over abstraction
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:07:25] <[mX]>	well I think the thing to do now is to mock up some of these ideas in QGV KGameCanvas and in custom painting and see which one really works
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:07:30] Betreten	emilsedgh hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 85.15.15.75).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:07:57] <wirr>	you are all invited to test QGV in superkaramba... ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:08:05] <aseigo>	suslik: i played with this in some throw away code ... the "make them first class objects" makes plasmoids easier to implement later on as they don't need to be able to load or associate themselves
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:08:06] Beenden	Crono_ hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:08:08] <[mX]>	and it would be cool if our framework allowed us to do this easily (switch between painting systems)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:08:28] <aseigo>	ah, that is another thing that's very nice about qgv
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:08:56] <aseigo>	we can offer a runtime choice to render via opengl for people who have systems that are up to the task
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:09:17] <piacentini>	aseigo: it is not just as easy with any QPainter based solution at this time?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:08] <aseigo>	piacentini: nearly ...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:09] <ruphy>	[mX], yeah, probably it would be nice to allow running some kind of graphics benchmarks to automatically see which method is the more effective and choose the right painting system for each system
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:26] <aseigo>	or we could start with one and see if it falls into acceptable ranges...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:31] <piacentini>	aseigo: yes, everything works 90% of the time... the problem is the other 10%
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:33] <piacentini>	..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:43] <aseigo>	yeah, the more i think about it the more that seems sane.. let's roll the dice with qgv between now and the end of march at least
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:10:46] <pinotree>	aseigo: how could you do with QPainter-based canvas and QWidgets of any kind?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:11] Beenden	emilsedgh hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:15] <pinotree>	qgv basically does not support that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:23] <aseigo>	pinotree: just like any other window... parent/child wigets with some widgets doing little more than painting an svg
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:37] 	 * WindowsUninstall dinner
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:39] <aseigo>	pinotree: ah, yeah... the lack of random qwidgets. it is concerning.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:11:41] <pinotree>	that's not going to work well
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:00] <pinotree>	i tested it a lot the usage of qgv in okular, and it didn't work well
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:04] <piacentini>	aseigo: I support the decision of going with qgv, at least so we can see the barriers clearly.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:12] <pinotree>	and the view basically rearranges the items, and you don't know
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:23] <aseigo>	pinotree: technically it's possible. it just needs to be made real... but if it is technically possible we simply can't offer more than line edits and buttons in version 1 but can offer more in version 2, i could live with that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:45] <ruphy>	pinotree, what do you use in okular?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:46] <Bille>	what i'm concerned about with QGV is that we will end up reimplementing all the layouting logic already present in widgets+painters Qt. what am I missing?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:12:51] <aseigo>	pinotree: rarranges items?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:13:04] <pinotree>	aseigo: yeah - see the alignment property of the view
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:13:11] <piacentini>	The worst that can happen imo is that we end up reimplemented as KGV, if TT patching is not up to what is needed ...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:13:12] <[mX]>	Bille: I think the idea is to push that to TT
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:13:40] <pinotree>	ruphy: simply: i tried using qgv for the pageview
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:05] <pinotree>	but as we need qwidgets in it, i needed also that thing done
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:28] Betreten	Rinse hat den Kanal betreten (n=Rinse at cc403563-b.bolsw1.fr.home.nl).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:31] <aseigo>	pinotree: ah.. that's ok though since we aren't trying to display a document lay out..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:45] Betreten	emilsedgh hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 85.15.15.75).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:53] <aseigo>	pinotree: each element interacts directly and independently, which is the concept behind qgv
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:14:57] <[mX]>	by the by, I say we forget about scripting for a few months :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:02] <aseigo>	pinotree: you're right that it isn't a document canvas
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:15] <wirr>	the question is what QWidgets would be used by people in a plasmoid?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:18] Betreten	Gunirus hat den Kanal betreten (n=Gunirus at 83.101.8.55).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:32] <pinotree>	wirr: simple: take the current kolourpicker applet as exaple
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:33] <aseigo>	wirr: lists and drop downs are fairly obvious candidates
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:46] <pinotree>	it's two very simple buttons
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:15:57] <[mX]>	I really don't see how it would be super difficult for TT to support drawing widgets in the qgv
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:11] Nickname	Nookie^ nennt sich jetzt ^Nookie^.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:12] <[mX]>	I mean we do it in khtml, just forwarding the painter
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:16] <wirr>	yeah, that's probably a pain to reimplement that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:19] 	 * aseigo nods
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:24] <[mX]>	or what is it, redirecting it
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:26] <aseigo>	it's completely doable, it just needs to be done
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:16:39] <ervin>	the problem is the transformation of the space (rotating, zooming)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:00] <wirr>	ervin: yeah, just tried it, it's painfully slow
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:13] <aseigo>	ervin: rotating we can avoid
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:14] <wirr>	especially zooming
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:21] <aseigo>	ervin: zooming is the only transformation we need
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:45] 	 * ruphy is still a bit worried about performances...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:17:46] <aseigo>	wirr: zooming can be fast -if- your items are aware of zooming
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:18:00] <aseigo>	wirr: e.g. don't redraw everything constantly and lose detail as zoom level increases
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:18:07] <wirr>	haven't tried that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:18:21] <Bille>	so we keep each widget within some container object, transform the container and tell the widget about the new size..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:18:35] <p0z3r_work>	interesting about the zooming trick.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:03] <aseigo>	most borders and gradients can be dropped over a certain zoom, for instance. text can dissapear
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:10] <[mX]>	yeah I mean chip runs pretty fast on my lappy here when using just arthur without antialiasing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:23] Betreten	_superstoned hat den Kanal betreten (n=supersto at 86.92.111.236).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:24] <[mX]>	I guess that's not fullscreen
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:29] <aseigo>	just think about what happens when you see a car in the distance versus up close
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:35] <ruphy>	aseigo, ah, uhm... it will be complicated for plasma developers then... :\
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:51] <ruphy>	unless this will be managed by plasma
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:19:52] <wirr>	i just tried to sclae(3, 3) on a SK theme and it took 100% cpu
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:20:01] <aseigo>	ruphy: well, this is why we need to offer a widget library.. well, that and script bindings
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:20:23] <aseigo>	ruphy: because we can make the widgets zoom aware, e.g. a text label that stops painting its text if zoom is < .75
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:20:40] <wirr>	but that's with a constant changing graph
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:20:49] <aseigo>	ruphy: so a plasmoid uses Plasma::Label rather than a QLabel or whatever itself
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:20:56] <Bille>	do we need some kind of Level Of Detail processor for SVGs to crop elements that are no longer visible at a certain zoom?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:29] <ruphy>	ok then, if it's us that code them... we will need to do a lot of widgets then =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:34] <aseigo>	wirr: right... the canvas won't be zooming constantly, only during user interaction asking for zoom. it can use cpu to do that, as long as it remains smooth and decently fast
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:46] <[mX]>	wirr: is your qgv code for sk in trunk now?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:51] <[mX]>	or is it a branch
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:54] <wirr>	[mX]: yeah, kdeutils
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:21:57] <aseigo>	ruphy: label, button, svg, html widget
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:07] <aseigo>	ruphy: there's actually not that many. we don't need to wrap every qwidget =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:13] <pinotree>	and line edits?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:19] <ruphy>	and text edits
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:20] <pinotree>	(that are quite tricky)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:26] <aseigo>	in fact, we probably want to NOT do that so that the plasmoids are relatively tame and coherent
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:39] <aseigo>	yes, line edits... those are already available in qgraphics view
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:22:59] <wirr>	hmm, let's discuss the other possibility, zooming QWidget, hows that suppose to work?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:00] <ruphy>	sounds nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:11] 	 * nielsvm wonders about Dashboard widgets... Sorry if I break the topic...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:11] <ervin>	aseigo: what's missing then? if qgv already support the few we needs...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:17] <aseigo>	nielsvm: that's after plasmoids
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:21] <ruphy>	nielsvm, after
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:22] <suslik>	on SVG zooming, spoke to Incscape guys, they are implementing DPI(or something like that) tagging for svg layers...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:24] <nielsvm>	okay
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:26] <aseigo>	ervin: just implementing loss of detail properly
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:30] <aseigo>	"just"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:33] <[mX]>	nielsvm: well that should be supported by our html widget
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:44] <[mX]>	considering we'll probably be using webkit for that by that point
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:23:55] <nielsvm>	okay.. clear!
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:24:01] <aseigo>	ok, one more topic before we wrap up and move the rest discussion to panel-devel: engine/visualization
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:24:03] <[mX]>	we just need to provide the same bindings apple provides
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:24:09] Beenden	_rikrd_ hat den Server verlassen ("KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:24:22] <aseigo>	this is piece we need before plasmoids... it's the part i'd be most happy working on as well =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:24:45] <aseigo>	it's model/view but with some differences:
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:25:01] <aseigo>	it isn't table centric like qt's stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:25:02] <wirr>	ok, a zooming factor < 1 works massively better than >1
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:25:47] <emilsedgh>	sorry for off-topic question.how is theme/template creating for Plasmoids??Im thinking about different Templates for Plasmoids.like Smarty on PHP.seperating Code and Template.maybe similar to MVC model
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:25:58] <aseigo>	it needs to be able to represent multiple disparate objects, otherwise we end up with lots of odd shims between, for instance, the window list and a model, or solid objects and a model
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:27:07] <aseigo>	emilsedgh: yes... plasmoids should only be allowed to reference standard components.. e.g. background box, header, pushbutton .... the rendering of those items needs to be done by classes in libplasma itself
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:27:07] <ervin>	aseigo: not sure I understood your last point
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:27:08] Beenden	eeanm hat den Server verlassen (Connection timed out).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:27:42] <aseigo>	emilsedgh: the point of Plasma::Theme is to provide access to svg pieces for the purely graphical parts, and the widgets for interaction
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:27:45] <ervin>	I don't see how you would avoid writing a model
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:28:25] <ervin>	you'll always need one to adapt the objets to the interface expected for engines, and to choose what you expose and what you hide
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:29:22] <aseigo>	ervin: oh, a model needs to be written, but rather than copying data about one can simply proxy between an object (e.g. a solid hardware entry) and a Plasma::DataSource object by connecting, for instance, signals
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:29:24] Beenden	emilsedgh hat den Server verlassen (Nick collision from services.).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:29:46] <aseigo>	ervin: qt's models revolve around storing data inside a tabular data structure, which is fine for what they are used for
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:29:56] Betreten	emilsedgh_ hat den Kanal betreten (n=emilsedg at 87.247.160.1).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:30:34] <aseigo>	ervin: plasma's models need to be event driven and should simply consist of proxying signals (and requests for signals, "stimulation") between existing object collections and the "model"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:30:39] <ervin>	ok, point taken, you plan a less constrained interface
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:30:49] <suslik>	I wonder how "animation effects" will be handled... would plasmoid need to flip pictures itself, ask qgv to do it, or just support MNG or something like that..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:02] <aseigo>	ervin: right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:23] <suslik>	so I could use the simple "on hover" - like effects
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:33] <ervin>	for what's worth it, for solid hardware discovery it could be almost done automatically through introspection
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:37] <wirr>	suslik: QGV can do animations
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:41] <ervin>	anything relevant is exposed
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:31:55] <aseigo>	the other side of the fence are visualizations which can be fed one or more datasources ... the data engine manages the collection of sources and connects sources on request to visualizations
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:32:08] 	 * dipesh_work is bb ~30min after switching to his muchhh^2 slower home-system...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:32:13] <aseigo>	a visualization can be anything from a text label ("you have mail") to a graph to a sound
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:32:18] Verlassen	dipesh_work hat den Kanal verlassen ("Kopete 0.12.3 : http://kopete.kde.org").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:32:49] <aseigo>	suslik: qtimeline makes it easy enough, though it's still not perfect
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:14] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, ok. a visualtization is something which tell something to the user
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:14] <aseigo>	oh, crap.. almost forgot about the desktop layer.. we do have zack's physics engine to use once we have the basics down to emulate more natural interactions
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:19] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:37] <aseigo>	the idea is that people can create visualizations without caring about the actual data that will be presented
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:43] <WindowsUninstall>	zack's physics engine?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:33:59] <aseigo>	other people can create data sources (e.g. solid, the window task list, akonadi events, whatever)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:34:12] <aseigo>	and yet third groups can glue these together into plasmoids of varying types
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:34:15] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: check his blog
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:34:28] <aseigo>	this is essentially ripped from superkaramba's playbook
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:34:40] <aseigo>	yeah, as long as we don't run the physics engine continuously we're ok
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:00] <aseigo>	e.g. if we only use it during item movement and kill it after perturbations fall beneath a certain level
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:09] <ruphy>	WindowsUninstall, to make non-boring animations, we use phisical equations to draw the animation
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:11] <aseigo>	because it tends to burn cpu cycles otherwise
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:13] Beenden	Pinaraf hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:20] <WindowsUninstall>	ruphy, nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:42] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: or maybe don't check his blog :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:35:59] <WindowsUninstall>	anyone can link to me his blog
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:36:03] Beenden	fabio hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:36:58] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: i don't know if he ever linked to it on his blog. he mentioned it, but probably only in passing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:37:01] 	 * aseigo has a tarball in any case
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:37:01] <wirr>	aseigo: do we allow plugins (lib) to extend plasmas data sourced?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:37:19] Betreten	Pinaraf hat den Kanal betreten (n=Pierre at ALille-252-1-43-85.w83-198.abo.wanadoo.fr).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:37:25] <wirr>	i wanted to do that with SK
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:37:34] <coolo>	aseigo: it's a qgv port of some other 2d engine
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:00] <ruphy>	coolo, what?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:32] <aseigo>	http://ktown.kde.org/~zrusin/examples/box2d.tar.bz2
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:36] <aseigo>	there it is =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:37] Beenden	tharkang hat den Server verlassen (Connection timed out).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:47] <aseigo>	http://ktown.kde.org/~zrusin/examples/blobs.tar.bz2 is cute too
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:53] 	 * coolo tries googling for box 2d and can't find it :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:38:56] <emilsedgh_>	sorry im on a low connection, i disconnected last time.im thinking about very easy templating.For example, think about creating a plasmoid theme in inkscape with some variables.for example {$WidgetTitle} in every SVG replaces automatically with Widget's Title.with this kind of templating, Artists can make plasmoids so easy.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:39:20] <emilsedgh_>	artists can make plasmoids Theme very easy :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:39:42] <ruphy>	ah, yeah, in examples/ you can see all zack stuff about graphics
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:39:58] <aseigo>	emilsedgh_: sure; we're a few steps from that point. but if you'd like to start researching what that would look like and putting together some proposals, that would help us save time once we get there
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:09] <coolo>	aseigo: we should have wobbling taskbar - that's for sure :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:13] <aseigo>	ruphy: can you note down the engine/vis thing..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:26] <aseigo>	coolo: hehe... it ain't finished till it wobbles
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:34] <ervin>	as for engine/vis
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:44] <ervin>	since obviously view will come later
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:52] <coolo>	aseigo: hmm, that reminds me that kpat isn't
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:40:57] <ervin>	any facility planned to be able to test engines asap?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:18] <ruphy>	aseigo, I think I already wrote it... I wrote: See if QGV works well for ^. Evaluate alternatives then.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:24] 	 * esben really likes the idea of having the plasmoid interaction controlled by a physics engine. I suppose we imagine the connections as springs? That would mean heavy damping, or they will vibrate for too long
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:24] <ervin>	so that at least we can progress on this front, and maybe have a few engines already ready for consumption?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:33] <aseigo>	ervin: i'll start working on finishing the engine classes immediately ... from there it's easy to test tem
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:57] <aseigo>	esben: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:57] Betreten	SadEagle hat den Kanal betreten (n=Maksim at cpe-24-59-193-233.twcny.res.rr.com).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:41:58] <ervin>	aseigo: I remember you talking about a cli tool in the interim (was in trysil)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:33] <ruphy>	aseigo, I haven't been much detailed because we don't actually know what we will use
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:36] <ervin>	we definitely need something to pick and engine and introspect it to see what will be exposed to applet writers
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:37] <aseigo>	esben: as i said, we need to kill the engine when changes fall below a certain delta or continue longer than a timeout
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:50] <aseigo>	ervin: yeah, that's what i had been working on
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:57] Betreten	fabio hat den Kanal betreten (n=fabio at 82.84.82.105).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:42:58] <ruphy>	aseigo, I could add 'create widgets' at most
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:00] 	 * ervin hugs aseigo 
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:04] <esben>	aseigo: Nevertheless, if the transition is to appear natural, we need to have motion stop quickly
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:05] <aseigo>	ervin: i haven't touched it in months. that's what's changing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:34] <ervin>	aseigo: yeah, note that I didn't kick you in the ass for missing the november deadline on this one ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:34] Beenden	mr__ hat den Server verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:38] <esben>	Anyway, constant movement is a good way way to drive users insane
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:39] <aseigo>	ervin: so hold my feet to the fire at next week's irc meet if i don't have it there for you
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:49] Beenden	OculusAquilae hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:51] <aseigo>	ervin: there's not reason other than sloth or getting hit by lightening =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:43:57] <ervin>	aseigo: that's next week right?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:00] <aseigo>	ervin: yes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:05] <Bille>	so, next steps?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:18] <ruphy>	aseigo, wouldn't a qtimer be a bit resource-sucking used on a so high amount of items?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:22] <aseigo>	next steps... people start claiming bits they'd like to work on, coding or research
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:29] <aseigo>	i'm taking the engines, due date next week
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:44] Nickname	Gunirus nennt sich jetzt StevenL.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:49] <aseigo>	ruphy: for the physics engine you mean?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:51] <^Nookie^>	aseigo: kicker will still be in kde4 or atlest something that acts like kicker?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:44:57] Nickname	StevenL nennt sich jetzt Gunirus.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:45:00] <ruphy>	aseigo, for the animations
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:45:22] <aseigo>	^Nookie^: step after the desktop layer is to take that, adapt it to floating and edge docking "palettes" and kill kicker
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:45:49] 	 * aseigo notes that this means he can refrain from having to decide if the launcher belongs on the desktop or on a panel, because the user can decide ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:09] <esben>	aseigo, ruphy: Do we have a summary of the tasks needed somewhere? The debate in here went rather quickly in places. Personally, I have about 1 day a week I can work on something, and is willing to do mostly anything that needs doing :)'
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:12] <^Nookie^>	aseigo: sweet
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:13] <aseigo>	note that we haven't really gotten this week to discussing plasmoid design, which is the most interesting topic of all..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:26] <aseigo>	but this stuff needs to happen first
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:35] <ruphy>	esben, yeah, I'm updating it with the last bits
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:45] <ruphy>	hang on a mom, I'll give you the link
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:46] <aseigo>	ruphy: ah .. that's why we need to avoid spontaneous and constant animations.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:46:58] <ervin>	aseigo: well, I can produce engines once the necessary stuff is in place, I'd love to help you with putting the framework in place but some say I have something to huge write...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:02] <aseigo>	ruphy: things should only moved with interacted with, and we will need to keep constraints on the limits of that
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:11] <ervin>	(was to answer the pic tasks)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:18] <ervin>	s/pic/pick/
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:24] <aseigo>	ervin: hehehe.. completely understood
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:41] <aseigo>	ruphy: can you email panel-devel with a link to the notes?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:47:51] <ruphy>	aseigo, of course
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:48:22] Nickname	^Nookie^ nennt sich jetzt Nookie^Away.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:48:31] Beenden	robertknight hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:48:34] <coolo>	aseigo: I can kill the remainings of kdesktop - if no-one shoots me for not being able to list ~/Desktop
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:48:54] <coolo>	and ervin will fix kdenetwork he said :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:00] <aseigo>	coolo: heh. that'll be a short-term blip in any case. we can live without that for a month or two i'm sure
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:14] <ervin>	coolo: actually that's not what I said to david :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:17] <aseigo>	kopete is broken i see int eh dashboard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:27] Betreten	psykobarbu hat den Kanal betreten (i=52ee3088 at gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-2acd605620705004).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:40] <coolo>	aseigo: yeah, it's all ervin's fault
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:49:50] <ervin>	kopete is bad for using KIO::Observer behing my back
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:10] <ervin>	I wonder how I missed it though
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:10] <aseigo>	lack a skanky girlfriend
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:12] <aseigo>	er, like
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:13] <ervin>	anyway
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:23] <esben>	ruphy: Do you have a link for that task list? :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:31] Beenden	milliams hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:56] Betreten	milliams hat den Kanal betreten (n=matt at dyn-62-56-50-31.dslaccess.co.uk).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:50:57] 	 * aseigo wishes he got more than 4 hours sleep last night
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:51:10] <aseigo>	coolo: btw, nice blog title ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:51:18] 	 * Tomasu can't believe he just read the entire backlog...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:01] <ereslibre>	aseigo, probably a very early question... has the physics engine started in any way ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:04] <aseigo>	Tomasu: almost as gripping as the "who shot j.r." episodes of dallas, i know
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:10] <coolo>	aseigo: I was told I used too much shift - I'm learning
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:14] <aseigo>	ereslibre: the box2d link above
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:19] <aseigo>	coolo: ahahahaa
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:24] <ereslibre>	aseigo, ok so what zrusin did
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:52:26] <Tomasu>	aseigo: interesting none the less
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:53:10] <ervin>	ok, are we done?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:53:16] <Tomasu>	I'm the type of person that likes flexibility and power over everything else.. so when you talk about all the limitations with what widgets and stuff that can be used, I squirm.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:53:19] <ervin>	can I finally go back home? :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:53:46] <esben>	I'm still offering my services, but I quite lost track of the tasks :/
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:22] Beenden	psykobarbu hat den Server verlassen (Client Quit).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:40] <aseigo>	ervin: looks that way =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:45] 	 * aseigo smacks his gavel on the desk
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:52] <aseigo>	esben: are you on the panel-devel list
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:53] <aseigo>	?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:54:55] <ervin>	later people!
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:06] <ruphy>	ervin, later dude
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:09] <esben>	aseigo: Yes :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:15] <WindowsUninstall>	see you later
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:27] <esben>	aseigo: This meeting was called as a reply to a mail of mine on that list, I think :o
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:30] Betreten	psykobarbu hat den Kanal betreten (i=52ee3088 at gateway/web/cgi-irc/ircatwork.com/x-7838e327f4e54473).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:38] <ruphy>	shiiit... it's this wiki is taking forever to load!
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:38] <aseigo>	esben: ok.. so ruphy will post a link there and you can select something from there.. if you've got limited time, i might suggest trying the tasklist integration into krunner
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:43] <Tomasu>	its funny, I cant wait for this stuff to take shape, but I rarely even see the desktop.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:55:56] <aseigo>	esben: that's something that doesn't block anything else so you can take your time and shouldn't be a TON of work...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:04] <aseigo>	Tomasu: we'll change that ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:04] <esben>	aseigo: kk, I'll take that then :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:23] <esben>	Good evening to all :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:31] <Tomasu>	aseigo: I have windows maximized all of the time, I don't like having windows smaller than max. not sure why.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:46] <ruphy>	esben, I'll help you if you want, I'm very busy with oxygen in this period
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:56] Beenden	ervin hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:56:59] <aseigo>	Tomasu: i do the same thing... i do have an evil trick planned for the desktop layer, however, to accomdate people like you and me
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:05] <Tomasu>	heh
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:10] <SSJ_GZ>	Tomasu: I'm exactly the same way, but I'm sure Plasma will change that :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:13] <Tomasu>	sounds good
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:19] <aseigo>	Tomasu: reparent the widgets on demand to an always-on-top full-screenwindow
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:22] <GNUro>	dude
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:28] <Tomasu>	yeah, I can only assume I dont use the desktop because its utterly useless currently.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:31] <ruphy>	esben, (so, not so much time as well ;-)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:37] <aseigo>	Tomasu: so we get something much like the os x dashboard, only not constrained to just the dashboard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:57:58] <ruphy>	shiit.. plasma.kde.org seems down!
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:18] Betreten	_milliams hat den Kanal betreten (n=matt at dyn-62-56-50-31.dslaccess.co.uk).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:28] <aseigo>	ruphy: yeah, the server is unavaialble atm.. hum hum hum. what timing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:31] <esben>	ruphy: ok, I'll scream if I need help :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:32] <ruphy>	seems under a DOS attack
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:37] <ruphy>	esben, ;-)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:51] 	 * esben whistles innocently
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:53] <Tomasu>	too many people hitting the site looking for irc updates? :D
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:54] <aseigo>	anyways.. i need to finish my kdebase email to k-c-d and then eat something
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:58:57] <aseigo>	hahaha
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:59:24] <ruphy>	aseigo, fortunately I made a backup in the clipboard, because I made a lot of changements :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:59:29] Beenden	milliams hat den Server verlassen (Nick collision from services.).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:59:31] Nickname	_milliams nennt sich jetzt milliams.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:59:35] <aseigo>	ruphy: yeah, i never trust wikis either
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [20:59:49] <ruphy>	ok, I'll put it on developernew then :P
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:00:14] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, wikis normaly works well
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:00:33] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: it's connectivity and browsers that make it shaky =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:01:05] Beenden	gaboo hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:01:29] Beenden	goliath23 hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:02:08] Betreten	gaboo hat den Kanal betreten (n=gaboo at cxr69-4-82-225-210-1.fbx.proxad.net).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:11] Betreten	Goliath23 hat den Kanal betreten (n=david at dslb-084-058-017-245.pools.arcor-ip.net).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:11] Betreten	eean hat den Kanal betreten (n=ian at amarok/developer/eean).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:35] Beenden	milliams hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:39] <Tomasu>	I'd love to get started helping, but I don't do the writing english well ;) even though its my first language.. and the code base is non existent for a bit..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:57] Beenden	eirik hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:03:59] <Tomasu>	lately I've been slamming the ktorrent guys with bugs :o
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:04:47] Beenden	dbdkmezz hat den Server verlassen ("Bye").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:04:56] Beenden	psykobarbu hat den Server verlassen ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:05] Betreten	milliams hat den Kanal betreten (n=matt at dyn-62-56-50-31.dslaccess.co.uk).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:20] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, Does the meeting is finished?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:32] <Tomasu>	WindowsUninstall: yup
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:33] <aseigo>	yes yes finished
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:44] <ereslibre>	aseigo, so from now... weekly meetings ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:46] <ruphy>	aseigo, I'll also write a little resume, ok?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:51] Beenden	Gunirus hat den Server verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:59] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, you have forgot to say EOM
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:05:59] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: if you feel lonely, you can talk about your youth and we nod from time to time. Deal?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:00] Topic	aseigo setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Plasma: KDE4 desktop and panel. http://plasma.kde.org | meeting on Feb 28 18:00GMT: engines update, plasmoids".
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:07] <aseigo>	ruphy: wicked
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:07] <ereslibre>	okay :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:10] <WindowsUninstall>	(End Of Meeting)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:12] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: i banged my gavel =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:47] <ereslibre>	i have tried boxes example, that physics are ncie
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:06:49] <ereslibre>	nice*
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:10] <ereslibre>	they remind me the "million dollars video"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:29] <leinir>	aseigo: You what? ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:36] <suslik>	switch ot the pos-meeting show, on E! channel they are discussing what an ugly dress ruphy was wearing
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:42] <aseigo>	leinir: sounds fun, doesn't it?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:46] <aseigo>	suslik: lol
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:48] <Tomasu>	suslik: lol
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:07:58] <ruphy>	aseigo, topic += scripting stuff
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:02] <aseigo>	ah, right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:08] <ruphy>	=)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:12] Topic	aseigo setzt das Kanal-Topic auf "Plasma: KDE4 desktop and panel. http://plasma.kde.org | meeting on Feb 28 18:00GMT: engines update, scripting, plasmoids".
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:13] <Tomasu>	isnt a week to early? ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:18] <leinir>	aseigo: i do rather like that sketch :) Much funniness in that one :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:39] <ruphy>	suslik, huh? =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:08:42] Beenden	Beineri hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:09:24] <coolo>	aseigo: how many people picking up tasks did we have now? As in not just asking questions? :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:10:20] <aseigo>	coolo: you, me, esben.. hopefully the rest will claim things on panel-devel... that's where i'll be stumping for stuff in any case =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:10:56] <suslik>	short of testing the engine, there were no pronounced tasks to note...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:11:57] <coolo>	someone could seriously evaluate kboard for the use cases described
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:12:03] <coolo>	but I don't want to extend the meeting :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:13:10] <WindowsUninstall>	I've tried box and blob demos
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:13:23] <WindowsUninstall>	and I think that they are very nice
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:13:57] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: also look at top while you do so
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:14:02] <coolo>	WindowsUninstall: but they are just that: demos
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:14:30] <aseigo>	coolo: yeah, that's something that i really want to do as well. i haven't even looked at the api, sadly
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:15:07] <aseigo>	suslik: there were the krunner issues, the desktop background rendering, desktop layer handling of containers+items with zooming and movement
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:15:51] <aseigo>	if someone could look at the kboard stuff and offer a summary report / demo that would be highly useful
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:15:54] <aseigo>	if even to strike it off the list =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:16:01] <WindowsUninstall>	seems very lightweight
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:16:47] <ereslibre>	coolo, demos, but the physics engine is already there
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:17:25] <ereslibre>	it needs testing, and using in real cases, of course
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:17:25] <suslik>	interesting thing about the "background" rendering - you mean for "virtual desktop"="plasmoid group" or the whole thing?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:17:57] Beenden	fabio hat den Server verlassen ("using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:18:10] Verlassen	pinotree hat den Kanal verlassen ("Bye!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:18:19] Beenden	piacentini hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:18:55] <aseigo>	suslik: the whole desktop background
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:19:25] <aseigo>	suslik: kdesktop offers bitmap or svg, plain colour, gradients, blending of any two of those
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:19:52] <aseigo>	suslik: all kinda 1999 and probably not overly interesting anymore, not to mention complex from a usage POV
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:05] Beenden	vicks hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:13] <suslik>	do you see plasmoid containers have its own / shaded background?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:15] <aseigo>	"wallapapers"
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:27] <coolo>	aseigo: yeah. by now everyone wants free porn. gradients are old fashioned :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:30] <aseigo>	suslik: some of them certainly will
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:20:37] <aseigo>	coolo: mm. pr0n.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:15] Betreten	dipesh hat den Kanal betreten (n=dipe at port-212-202-0-108.dynamic.qsc.de).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:15] <aseigo>	suslik: it's not the most complex of tasks, but it needs to be done ... and not everyone wants a complex task, so it works out
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:21] <suslik>	good stuff. when it's time to code the actual widgets, wake me up :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:28] Betreten	FuzZy2007 hat den Kanal betreten (n=FuzZy200 at 86.35.180.203).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:38] 	 * aseigo puts on wham!'s wake me up
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:21:58] <aseigo>	(and no, i'm not kidding. it's actually playing on amarok now =P )
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:00] 	 * aseigo has not astes
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:01] <aseigo>	er, taste
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:39] <suslik>	yea, i though "has no testies" didnt sound right
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:43] <dipesh>	well, wake me up before you go mayy not be the best choice for a devel-job ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:44] 	 * ruphy goes having dinner... see you all guys!
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:22:50] <ruphy>	bbl
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:23:12] Verlassen	suslik hat den Kanal verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:25:36] <Goliath23>	hi
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:25:55] <Goliath23>	does the genkernel generated initrd have support to boot from reiserfs filesystems?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:26:17] <Goliath23>	I try to update a kernel on a remote system and the system doesn't start with the new kernel ...
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:26:37] <Tomasu>	um, go to #gentoo ;)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:26:48] <Goliath23>	argh :) FC
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:26:50] <Goliath23>	sry
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:27:02] <dipesh>	hehe
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:30:40] <WindowsUninstall>	Goliath23, don't use genkernel
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:30:54] <WindowsUninstall>	do your kernel
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:30:59] <WindowsUninstall>	choose what do you want
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:31:33] Verlassen	dognews hat den Kanal verlassen ("Kopete 0.11.1 : http://kopete.kde.org").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:31:39] <Goliath23>	I know, I tried the easy route... no problem, just doing a make oldconfig and choosing the new options..
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:34:24] Betreten	eeanm hat den Kanal betreten (n=ian at amarok/developer/eean).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:36:13] <Goliath23>	nice meeting btw :) I didn't have the chance to read everything. but I wish you all the best! I'd wish software development in the company I work would work like here(kde in general!) !
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:37:29] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, talking about ksysguard: about which library have you talked?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:41:18] Betreten	shawn_home hat den Kanal betreten (n=spstarr at CPEdeadbeef0000-CM000039d4cc6a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:41:43] Beenden	gaboo hat den Server verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:45:04] Verlassen	p0z3r_work hat den Kanal verlassen.
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:47:00] Beenden	FuzZy2007 hat den Server verlassen (Remote closed the connection).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:48:40] <ereslibre>	aseigo, just a typo, it'd be nice having  README file in any "new?" technology to let newcomers know what is that about. for example, it'd be nice having a README file into krunner folder to introduce what krunner does
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:48:55] <ereslibre>	as ksmserver has for example
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:49:29] Beenden	eean hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:49:30] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: look in kdebase/workspace/ksysguard/gui/SensorDisplayLib
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:49:46] <WindowsUninstall>	aseigo, I see ksysguard library everywhere
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:50:07] <aseigo>	ereslibre: yes, that needs to be addded... i left that off until we actually knew what all was going to be in krunner =)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:50:19] <ereslibre>	aseigo, hehe nice :)
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:50:24] <WindowsUninstall>	the new websvn look is horrible
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:50:42] <WindowsUninstall>	ok
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:51:07] Beenden	emilsedgh_ hat den Server verlassen (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:51:09] <WindowsUninstall>	it's a different library
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:51:12] <aseigo>	WindowsUninstall: i don't likethe fixed width layout for that particular app, but other than that... *shrug*
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:51:19] <shawn_home>	hmm? plasma goodies?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:52:04] <aseigo>	shawn_home: hm?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:52:51] Verlassen	dirk hat den Kanal verlassen ("Konversation terminated!").
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:52:57] Betreten	dirk hat den Kanal betreten (n=nndirk at kde/mueller).
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:53:00] <WindowsUninstall>	I'm working on a daemon called ksystemguard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:53:34] <ereslibre>	WindowsUninstall, ksystemguardd ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:53:54] <WindowsUninstall>	ksystemguard
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:54:11] <WindowsUninstall>	it's a deamon which export infos by dbus
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:54:19] <ereslibre>	WindowsUninstall, where is it ?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [21:55:43] <WindowsUninstall>	 /branches/work/kdehw/solidstats/daemon/
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [22:01:38] <Tomasu>	hah, wouldnt that be fun to make your freenode mask?
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [22:01:56] <Tomasu>	the svn dir you play with the most or something
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [22:02:30] <WindowsUninstall>	lol
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [22:02:34] <ruphy>	back
[Mi Feb 21 2007] [22:03:41] <ruphy>	Goliath23, of course it does