[Owncloud] About Bootstrap and ownCloud

[Bernhard Posselt]

Can we end this discussion? I'm kinda tired of it. If you want bootstrap please reimplent own clouds CSS and the CSS of all its apps and provide it in a pull request.

Just talking about that the core devs (Jan) not using your favorite lib won't help to improve anything ;)

Ed W <lists at wildgooses.com> wrote:

>On 20/03/2013 15:05, Jan-Christoph Borchardt wrote:
>> Klaas, Danimo, I think your points are good in general. Please keep in 
>> mind this discussion is about Bootstrap specifically though. Bootstrap 
>> might be the go-to library for website coders who don’t want to invest 
>> much into caring about design. But it’s just some predefined styles, 
>> it’s far from »the web design framework«. We would need to customize 
>> and remove so much that I fail to see the value here.
>
><tongue in cheek>
>Absolutely, there is no way that people using bootstrap could create 
>such varied designs as these (linked from the homepage of bootstrap)
>http://builtwithbootstrap.com/
>
>With regards to customising, I guess there is a small chance that we 
>could look at how these free themes have been created with only some 
>changes to the bootstrap input files:
>http://bootswatch.com/
>
>And possibly some of these paid for themes offer some inspiration on 
>tweaking things further?
>https://wrapbootstrap.com/
>
>(Nice lazy loaded images in that last one)
>
>It is also a good time to suggest we ditch jquery? It's just some 
>pre-defined javascripts, it's far from a web framework - we could just 
>copy out the bits we need and paste those into the scripts which need 
>them as we go along? We customise the scripts so much in practice I fail 
>to see the value of including them?
></tongue in cheek>
>
>(Please smile, don't take offence...)
>
>
>> My main point here is that not everything is magically improved by 
>> using a library like Bootstrap, and it’s not even a good base. Look 
>> for instance at our installation process. It’s so vastly simpler than 
>> any other installation process, and it would look and work way more 
>> complicated if we used Bootstrap. If we want to do proper usable 
>> design, we need to invest more.
>
>I honestly believe you are missing the point. If you want proper usable 
>design you need to invest *massively, massively more* if you go your own 
>way (*good* cross platform css designs are very hard). The shortcut to 
>this tremendous investment is to stand on the shoulders of those who 
>have gone before and re-use some well debugged base libraries. There are 
>plenty out there, from simple html5 resets, various grid layouts, 
>yaml.de is quite nice, all the way up to the fully loaded behemoth which 
>is bootstrap
>
>The main reason to critique bootstrap is that it does too much for you 
>and you have a small skilled developer base who can turn this stuff out 
>without a moments hesitation, and they all pull in the same direction 
>and build a small core library of re-usable styles... Given that the 
>current situation is every app has it's own css and the main base theme 
>has absolute positioned stuff in it, I would say that the current 
>situation is pretty iffy..?
>
>However, I believe that the core developers should choose this, not 
>idiots like. You need to pick something you are comfortable with for the 
>long term.
>
>Good luck
>
>Ed W
>
>
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