Online asteroid data -> wish list?
Steffen Möller
steffen_moeller at gmx.de
Sun Mar 25 13:12:43 UTC 2018
Jasem,
On 3/25/18 7:58 AM, Jasem Mutlaq wrote:
>
> Were you able to get KStars compiled on your system? I think that's
> the first thing you should try to get going.
It is a while ago, but yes. I typically take the kstars sources from
Debian experimental but have no problem to work with git to contribute.
> Valentin just submitted major enhancements to KStars asteroid-handling
> code to increase efficiency. But basically today we're relying one
> source of JPL data for asteroid/NEO/comets and KStars is computing the
> the mag & coordinates when necessary.
I saw Valentin's reply where he pointed out that we need to define what
to achieve. I frankly do not want to compete with the asteroid code base
you have today. Maybe that is not possible. What I am is to help
bringing the most worthwhile observations to the right observers. I'll
describe this a bit more at length and maybe more formally when replying
to Valentin.
>
> It seems that scout2kstars is using the regular Catalog import
> feature, which treats such objects as stars/DSOs and not local solar
> system objects, so their positions will not be accurate.
That is just me not knowing enough about how the Catalog works / what
type to specify.
> Now I'm not sure if you mentioned before that such objects have their
> ephemerides recomputed on the server itself?
The workflow basically is to look at the list of asteroids proposed.
Then take the asteroids ID, check visibility at the remote scopes at
one's disposal, see a free slot. Then the ephemeres for that free slot
for the location of the telescope is computed. That compute for noobs
like me is performed by these web services. The same noob one or two
weeks down the road is requested to perform the computation him/herself
with orbit computation programs like find_orb.
The frustrating part is that different parts of the night have the same
object visible or not and when reserving the scope at bit in the future
since ad hoc everything is reserved (which is normal) then one keeps
hacking in many coordinates. So this is what kstars is likely to help
out with - matching time, asteroid and telescope.
> If that's the case, what's the time period required to run another
> update for the data to be valid again?
I frankly don't really know. This depends on how fast the asteroid is
moving and how many other observers went for the same object, I tend to
think. If technically reasonable I would not even store the data locally
but use it dynamically to fill a selection box. The user/kstars would
then need to know that for actually observing the object new
computations are required to be retrieved on demand that are either
retrieved online or self-computed.
Best,
Steffen
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 4:07 AM, Steffen Möller
> <steffen_moeller at gmx.de <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I had a look at the machine-readable flavour of
> https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/scout.html
> <https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/scout.html> at
> https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/scout.api
> <https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/scout.api> which returns a bit of json
> like this
>
> {"count":"28",
> "signature":{"source":"NASA/JPL Scout API","version":"1.2"},
> "data":[
> {"neo1kmScore":"0","lastRun":"2018-03-10 11:39","uncP1":"0.99",
> "dec":"+62","neoScore":"100","rating":"0","rate":"1.0","unc":"0.95","phaScore":"0",
> "ra":"15:06","elong":"109","nObs":"14","arc":"28.46","tEphem":"2018-03-25
> 00:15",
> "objectName":"ZE9BC85","tisserandScore":"0","caDist":"7.8",
> "vInf":"9.1","H":"27.4","rmsN":"0.97","ieoScore":"0","geocentricScore":"0","moid":"0.02",
> "Vmag":"24.9"},
> {"neo1kmScore":"0","lastRun":"2018-03-20 10:48","uncP1":"130",
> "dec":"-18","neoScore":"100","rating":"0","rate":"5.6","unc":"120","phaScore":"0",
> "ra":"12:04","elong":"164","nObs":"7","arc":"1.10","tEphem":"2018-03-25
> 00:15",
> "objectName":"ZF2E18B","tisserandScore":"42","caDist":"6.2",
> "vInf":"17.9","H":"26.4","rmsN":"1.24","ieoScore":"0","geocentricScore":"0","moid":"0.02",
> "Vmag":"21.4"},
> ...
> ]}
>
> Blanks and newlines were added by me to help with readability. In
> analogy to the MPC NEOCP page I created a 'tool' to transform the
> above into a kstars-catalog compatible format:
>
> #catalog id longname RA Decl type magnitude
> scout 0 ZE9BC85 15:06 +62 255 24.9
> scout 1 ZF2E18B 12:04 -18 255 21.4
> scout 2 P10H4MB 11:14 +08 255 22.0
> ...
>
> The API also nicely supports the query for additional
> information about individual objects. To retrieve information
> on observations as stored by the MPC one retrieves from
> https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/scout.api?tdes=ZFA47C1&file=mpc
> <https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/scout.api?tdes=ZFA47C1&file=mpc>
> additional json-formatted data
>
> {"neo1kmScore":"0","lastRun":"2018-03-18 12:18","uncP1":"2600",
> "dec":"+55",
> "fileMPC":" ZFA47C1* C2018 03 18.44658 12 45 21.11 +09 39
> 21.7 19.8 GUNEOCPG96\n
> ZFA47C1 C2018 03 18.45169 12 45 17.59 +09 42
> 22.9 19.5 GUNEOCPG96\n
> ZFA47C1 C2018 03 18.45678 12 45 14.04 +09 45
> 23.8 20.1 GUNEOCPG96\n",
> "neoScore":"100","rating":null,"rate":"8.1","unc":"2500","phaScore":"0",
> "ra":"10:59","elong":"116","nObs":"3","arc":"0.24","tEphem":"2018-03-25
> 00:30",
> "objectName":"ZFA47C1","tisserandScore":"32","caDist":"25","vInf":null,"H":"24.6","rmsN":"0.18","ieoScore":"0",
> "signature":{"source":"NASA/JPL Scout API","version":"1.2"},
> "geocentricScore":"0","moid":"0.05",
> "Vmag":"22.3"}
>
> which would then nicely serve an automated recomputation of
> ephemerides.
>
> So, I put this as scout2kstars at
> http://functional.domains/kstars/
> <http://functional.domains/kstars/> and
> await further instructions.
>
> Best,
>
> Steffen
>
>
> On 3/23/18 1:19 PM, Steffen Möller wrote:
>
> Hello again,
>
> I had asked my asteroidal mentor about his opinion. He said
>
> (1) there is a new JPL analogue to the MPL NEOCP that is
> called "scout"
> https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/scout/
> <https://cneos.jpl.nasa.gov/scout/>
> with an API outlined at
> https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/scout.html
> <https://ssd-api.jpl.nasa.gov/doc/scout.html>
> (2) in particular for asteroids of a high magnitude one
> commonly recomputes oneself the ephemeres from the
> observations available with find_orb. That tool is open source
> and available in Debian already, so kstars could just add it
> as "suggested" and would not need to redistribute it.
> (3) JPL/MPL is all fine, no conflicts since one does not use
> either pre-computed data.
>
> The recomputation of ephemerides (2) I had not expected.
> Sounds like a nice feature for kstars to have, though. This
> could for instance look like a text area to which past
> observations are downloaded on demand. The user can then edit
> these data and add own observations. Then, the ephemeres could
> be computed.
>
> As an initial shot at (1) and (3), i.e. the initial selection
> of asteroids to inspect at a given evening, I will have a
> closer look at scout and also provide some C++ code to
> reformat it. If there is something else you want me to do then
> please tell me.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steffen
>
> On 3/17/18 2:41 PM, Steffen Möller wrote:
>
> On 3/17/18 1:13 PM, Jasem Mutlaq wrote:
>
> I think the asteroid component in KStars needs to be
> updated to incorporate different sources instead of a
> single source like now, then it could parse the
> different sources and resolves any conflicts before
> making it available to the user.
>
>
> While this is certainly useful and interesting, I tend to
> think that for asteroids the user has already decided what
> source to trust for what purpose. After all, the
> equipment the user brings e.g. for asteroidal occultations
> is very different than for dealing with NEOs, so the
> choice is already made when kstars is started and no
> consensus between data sources is required. So, as a start
> I suggest to just show the data from a particular source
> that is selected.
>
> I propose you ("we" if you allow) get some workflow
> established that supports the communication of JPL/MPC
> resources with amateur scientists and then talk back to
> those agencies. They are likely to have more ideas and why
> not work towards a joint press release about it.
>
> The context from which I am bothering you about all is
> that I have joint the Slooh.com community. They have an
> A(steroid)-Team and a tutorial plus mentoring to guide
> noobs like me towards first successes. Their official
> guide towards prioritising the many potential targets is
> to enter their coordinates into kstars and its
> alternatives to then get an idea about the elevation above
> the horizon, the object-earth-moon angle, ... . That
> sounds worse than it is since Slooh only has two sites and
> reducing to a magnitude of 19 limits the targets one wants
> to look at, but, still, it is 2018 and one should not need
> to perform any such error-prone typing or limit oneself to
> two sites of remote telescopes or to mag 19.
>
> So, I really think that kstars could make quite a difference.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steffen
>
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:25 AM, Steffen Möller
> <steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>>> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> On 3/16/18 3:07 PM, Jasem Mutlaq wrote:
>
> If you have a method to automate this process,
> we can include
> it in KStars.
>
> I now created a small to tool and tried
>
> wget -O -
> https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>>
> |
> ./neocp2kstars
>
> which gives me
>
> #catalog id longname RA Decl type magnitude
> neocp 0 A106yEM 9.8501 -37.3746 255 17.3
> neocp 1 ZFA1276 12.9752 19.5189 255 20.9
> neocp 2 ZFA142F 16.1963 17.7824 255 20.4
> neocp 3 ZFA13B2 15.2812 16.1363 255 20
> neocp 4 ZFA1343 14.0707 13.71 255 18.5
>
> .....
>
> Source code is at
> http://functional.domains/kstars/
> <http://functional.domains/kstars/>
> <http://functional.domains/kstars/
> <http://functional.domains/kstars/>> . There is
> apparently object
> type for asteroids since kstars knows the
> ephemerides, right? For
> this particular page, one does not really need to
> know much more
> than that the NEO is listed on it and thus help is
> needed, I tend
> to think. The magnitude is the most important
> parameter so the
> user can decide if the object is likely to be
> visible with the
> telescope and seing conditions. And then the user
> retrieves online
> the ephemerides for the objects of interest. For
> other lists, one
> may be tempted to want to know a bit morem i.e.
> more than the
> catalog is currently prepared for.
>
> But we're getting our astroid data from JPL
> and not MPC, so
> that's the problem here.
>
>
> To the best of my little understanding of the
> whole process, the
> neocp are not part of the catalogs, yet, so this
> should be fine
> wrt redundancy.
>
> I am too new with this all to make any judgement
> on how likely it
> is to expect differences/inconsistencies for
> numbered objects
> between the institutions' generated web sites and
> what kstars
> computes.
>
> Perhaps we can support more than one source of
> data.
>
>
> This would be nice. Another list that I would like
> to see is
>
> https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/NEO/LastObsNEO.html
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/NEO/LastObsNEO.html>
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/NEO/LastObsNEO.html
> <https://www.minorplanetcenter.net/iau/NEO/LastObsNEO.html>>
>
> The MPC also offers a text file of that content
> which I happily
> also transform.
>
> Maybe it would help to introduce the concept of
> temporary validity
> of such star data. For any conflicting information
> the data in
> kstars should be superior I tend to think since it
> can determine
> the asteroidal positions for any time, right? Just
> for objects
> unknown to kstars one would like to see that data
> added. Extra
> information on the type of asteroid (hazardous or
> not, ...) and
> when it was last found would be nice to address, too.
>
> Many thanks and regards,
>
> Steffen
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 5:04 PM, Steffen Möller
> <steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>>
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de
> <mailto:steffen_moeller at gmx.de>>>> wrote:
>
> Hello again,
>
> On 3/13/18 9:50 AM, Steffen Möller wrote:
>
> Dear KStars-Team,
>
> There are multiple web sites out there
> that support
> amateur
> astronomers with the prioritization of
> their asteroidal
> observations. I mean, there is no
> chance for kstars to
> know
> this offline since only the MPC knows
> when a newly
> reported
> asteroid needs a confirmation. These
> are somewhat
> tricky at
> times in that even when you are
> granted the opportunity to
> specify the geographic location of
> your telescope,
> these do
> not necessarily state the exact time
> at which it is
> available
> (which you need to ask for the
> ephemerides in a second
> step)
> or the object is so low above the
> horizon that one
> would shy
> away from it. So, I'd very much like
> to see these
> dynamically
> created web sites auto-feed my wish
> list and fall back
> to the
> comfort of kstars.
>
> Would that be desirable? If so, then I
> propose to
> contact the
> provider(s) of these web sites about
> the degree they
> want to
> support any such project e.g. by a
> XML/JSON version of
> their
> output if they don't have it already
> or the parsing
> could be a
> first code contribution of mine. These
> sites also
> differ in
> the extra information these offer
> about the asteroid. Once
> could such also consider to extend the
> data model that
> represents asteroids in kstars with
> such dynamic
> information.
> To mind comes the date at which the
> asteroid was last
> observed.
>
> Please kindly instruct me about what I
> should do
> towards any
> such development.
>
>
> I received a reply by Valentin who
> suggested to import
> such files
> manually. I was not ultimately happy about
> that
> suggestion, I must
> admit, since to me it was important to see
> the workflow as
> a whole
> somehow represented from within kstars.
> But he may have a
> point.
> The MPC offers both XML and json files here
> https://minorplanetcenter.net/data
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data>
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data>>
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data>
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data
> <https://minorplanetcenter.net/data>>> and the
> http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>>
>
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json
> <http://www.minorplanetcenter.net/Extended_Files/neocp.json>>>
> in
> particular seems of interest to me.
>
> So, I'll then prepare a script to download
> that file, pimp
> it for
> an import to kstars and report about it here.
>
> Steffen
>
>
>
>
More information about the Kstars-devel
mailing list