KDE should strive for better java support to gain more developers.
peter.qusec at gmx.de
Sun Apr 27 14:17:46 BST 2008
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:22:05 +0200
> Von: mitch <mitch074 at gmail.com>
> An: kde at mail.kde.org
> Betreff: Re: [kde] KDE should strive for better java support to gain more developers.
> Corrected proposal: the KDE project should very well document how to
> access their applications with Java
> Lack of pointers and need for garbage collection go hand in hand: in
> C/C++, you clean up after yourself. You don't clean up, you get buried
> under crap. Java (and .Net/Mono C#) get away with garbage collection
> because 1- the virtual machine they run in has a small memory capacity,
> and 2- being virtual machines in nature, if they crash they don't bring
> other applications down with them.
> The price of this automatic memory management is incredible slowness
That might have been the case in the past, but that is certainly not true any more. Automatic memory management can even be more efficient than manual memory management because the VM can clean larger chunks of memory at a time which leads to less fragmentation.
>From my personal experience I know that java is certainly not slow. In my group we are working on some large scale applications that keep gigabyte of data in main memory and that works just fine.
> difficulty of integration with the rest of the system;
I don't know about that, never tried it ;-)
> Sun tried for a
> Java OS for a long while, without success due to the humongous overhead
> entailed by such a system, and its relative lack of stability.
> Please note that GNOME already uses Mono for some apps (Tomboy, Beagle);
> browse the Intarweb for Tomboy and Beagle troubles: CPU hogging, memory
> use, crashes, etc. for the simple reason that while programming apps in
> VMs is easier than doing C on a real machine, programming the VM is
> another bucket of nails all in itself.
Well, I think that its unfair to infer from problems in Mono that Java will the same problems. While I don't know much about Mono I can't imagine that Mono is even nearly as mature as Java.
> Current compilers, automatic checks and CPU extensions like the NX bit
> are able to point out a lot of potential leaks and type corruptions: if
> you program without paying attention to your compiler output, yes, C/C++
> is trouble; if you program cleanly, it blows Java's socks off.
The problem is, as a c++ you need to direct much of your attention to these problems instead of on the problem you are actually trying to solve with your program. In my opinion developer time is the most important resource in a software project much more so than memory or CPU usage.
> And, deal breaker, Java isn't fully licensed under the GPL - so it can't
> be distributed with KDE.
Java is open source except for the sound engine and the SNMP code and Sun has promised to make that open sorce by the end of the year.
Also, my main point is that KDE should provide a straight forward way for Java developers to contribute to KDE. I believe that there are quite a few Java developers out there who would like to contribute to KDE but for whom its just not worth the hassle to switch to c++.
> End of story.
> Peter Qusec a écrit :
> > Proposal: The kde project could get access to a huge pool of developers
> by integrating java into kde and allowing java applications to become part
> of the kde distribution.
> > According to the TIOBE Programming Community Index
> (http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html) java has about twice the
> mindshare as c++.
> > One reason for that is that java is in many ways far more sophisticated
> than c++. Features like garbage collection, avoidance of pointers,
> automatic refactoring, not having to duplicate class signatures in header files,
> easier handling of threads and many more, allow java developers to completely
> avoid a large array of bugs that c++ developers frequently make (or at
> least that I did). In my experience I would guess that a java developer is at
> least twice as effective as a c++ developer meaning (s)he can implement at
> least twice the functionality in the same time as a c++ developer can.
> > So far the ugliest part that I've encountered in java is swing, but that
> should be no problem since it could be replaced by jambi.
> > One important obstacle for java so far was that it wasn't open source
> but sun has changed that during the last year.
> > Therefore I would welcome a better support for java in kde because that
> would allow me to contribute the kde project.
> > Best regards,
> > Peter
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