discussion? where? well, not here...

[Mat Colton]

Am Sonntag, 24. November 2002 16:14 schrieb Andreas Pour:
> Mat Colton wrote:
> > Navindra Umanee wrote:
> > > Mat Colton <mat.colton at web-xs.de> wrote:
> > > > It's fine if they're commercial. But since it doesn't belong to KDE
> > > > we have no influence on the site. So maybe tomorrow they'll ask for
> > > > a subscription for everything. What do we know? So IMHO I wouldn't
> > > > put that on the front page.  Staying IMHO we should set up a
> > > > apps.kde.org. :)
> > >
> > > What the hell?  We've been using the site for years on the main page
> > > now.
> >
> > So, because of that it will stay that way forever? Because of that it's
> > good?
>
> Not b/c of that, but yes, in KDE tradition has a very important role.  E.g.
> if you want to remove an application from CVS it requires more than one
> person saying "I don't like that program".
>
> > I can show you millions of things that we humans have been doing for ages
> > and still aren't good... I'm sure you can as well.
> > Now before you turn the words in my mouth again: I am NOT saying Appsy
> > isn't any good.
> >
> > > It's one of the most appreciated features of www.kde.org,
> >
> > I don't know anybody who goes to kde.org to get the current Appsy items.
> > You do that once, then you bookmark Appsy I would think, maybe I'm wrong.
> > But anyway, I find that very interesting information, how do you know
> > that it's one of the most appreciated features of www.kde.org? Do you
> > have overall link-off statistics?
>
> I can tell you that over 3,000 visitor come per day from www.kde.org, based
> on the browser "referer" header anyway.  

Interesting, how many visitors load the frontpages of kde.org and apps.kde.com 
per day?

> You can compare some of the other
> links on front page to see if they get more hits, but I highly doubt many
> of them do.

There are surely enough sites in the KDE family that get a nice number hits 
every day from kde.org, so they stay on the front page? Aha. So basically 
what *I* get out of all this is: "The content is great, let's do a new 
design". Or am I missing something? 

> Probably Navindra can give us similar stats from the dot - I remember when
> I was hosting it most traffic came from www.kde.org.
>
> > That would be an interesting thing to know. I can imagine
> > that it is very interesting for a first time visitor of kde.org.
>
> Well I actually think its a service people like to see there, even though
> obviously you are not one of them :-).

Well I visit Appsy quite often, but I've never have gone there from the 
kde.org front page. But I am not everybody. Maybe we should offer a "Bookmark 
HOWTO" on kde.org. ;)

> > Well, take a look at Appsy going commercial. Fine with me
> > , and I really
> > mean that, but it doesn't cope with *my* idea of free software.
>
> We can get into long debates about this, but appsy complies with any
> well-known views on free software I have heard of.  Except since it does
> not get subsidies and handouts the idea is to make it self-sufficient by
> permitting people to volunarily contribute to the site by offering optional
> add-on services.
> If the site ever runs afoul of accepted free software principles then I can
> see your argument.

Since IMHO the changes weren't transparent I had to ask. IMHO explaining the 
whole thing at a prominent position on apps.kde.com would help. But that's 
none of my business.

> > Now, before I'm misunderstood again, of course Appsy should go on
> > kde.org, but not on the front page IMHO. We won't offer the current KDE
> > packages from the front page either.
>
> Sure we do.  That's the main part of the front page ("KDE 3.0.4 Released",
> etc.).

Hey, you really nailed me on that one! :) The last time I had a look at the 
notices they were release notes (or I'm mixing something up). 
<ironic>
And I assumed (which was my mistake, ok ok) that "Learn"->"KDE 3.0.5 Info" was 
not "Download"->"Stable Version". Sorry, sometimes I'm so stupid...I even 
rely on link labels actually being informative...
</ironic>

> Wise web design also says to make the front page non-static.  This is a
> general principle in website design. 

Thank you for enlighting me. ;) 
I made suggestions on how to arrange the content and make sure there are not 
too much stuff on the page.  It was also about dynamic content BTW. And I 
showed an example of what I think is a user friendly navigation. You haven't 
commented on any of that.
Marko Faas has thrown in some very good ideas IMHO. Partially stuff that is 
interesting even though the way it is offered is static. You haven't commented 
on any of that either. Not that you have to, but I did notice that fact.

> > > In one sentence you say the current www.kde.org is good enough, and in
> > > the next you say the content isn't good enough for the new design.
> >
> > What I wrote was that the old content has flaws IMHO, BUT..staying with
> > the current design is better then moving on to a design which, *as a
> > whole*, isn't better then the old design.
>
> Well I would very much oppose any design which removed the most popular
> features from the current design.  Since I have an ostensible conflict of
> interest here, if you continue to be serious about opposing this for no
> good reason (some idiosyncratic and ill-defined concept of free software
> doesn't cut it) I suggest we take it to kde-eve-membership for resolution
> (but for my conflict of interest I would simply add the feed in myself b/c
> it seems like a no-brainer to me).

Up to here your post was mostly constructive. This last paragraph wasn't at 
all.I offered some ideas how to solve the problem (and will hand in more as 
soon as I have a few free moments), so please stop flaming me. Thank you.
BTW, what is kde-eve-membership?
-- 
Bye,
Mat