Emerge as an open package manager?

Wed Apr 6 23:18:45 CEST 2011

I also like the idea and I already created an emerge-target for libsdl-src (just because it was the first thing that came into my mind)
The patch is in the KDE reviewboard (which is down atm so I can't post a link), any comment on it would be welcome

-Michael

  _____  

From: Andrius da Costa Ribas [mailto:andriusmao at gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2011 4:32 AM
To: KDE on Windows
Subject: Re: Emerge as an open package manager?

1+

Em 05/04/2011 21:48, "Romain Pokrzywka" <romain.pokrzywka at kdab.com> escreveu:
> 
> On Thursday 31 March 2011 09:30:11 Pau Garcia i Quiles wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> http://www.elpauer.org/?p=687
>>
>> Copying and pasting for the sake of easier discussion:
>>
>> --8<----
>>
>> A while ago I said Koen from Emweb made an interesting proposal at
>> FOSDEM about emerge, the KDE Windows build tool.
>>
>> Yesterday, Jarosław Staniek and I reaffirmed our commitment to
>> ‘emerge’. Today, I’d like to go a bit further: let’s bring more
>> developers to emerge by opening it up to other projects. Keep reading!
>>
>> What is emerge, why is it important and what was Koen’s proposal?
>>
>> Fact: Microsoft Windows is very different to Unix in regards to
>> development.
>>
>> On Unix platforms -that includes Linux and Mac OS X-, software
>> isusually installed to /usr: applications in /usr/bin and /usr/sbin,
>> libraries in /usr/lib, headers in /usr/include, common resources in
>> /usr/share, etc. Also, dependency management is usually something you
>> can count on: when you install kdelibs5-dev in Ubuntu, it will
>> automatically install libqt4-dev, kdelibs5-data, libfreetype
>> (runtime), etc That makes setting up a development environment a very
>> easy task: look for shared libraries, header files, etc in the common
>> places and you will probably find them.
>>
>> On Windows there is nothing like that. When you want to compile an
>> application, you need to provide (build and install) all its
>> dependencies, and you need to tell Visual Studio where to find
>> everything. Even CMake usually needs some help in the form of a hint
>> for CMAKE_PREFIX_PATH. As you may imagine, building KDE, which has
>> more than 200 third party dependencies and tens of modules (and with
>> the move + split to git, many more) becomes an almost insurmountable
>> task.
>>
>> ‘Emerge’ to the rescue: inspired by Gentoo‘s emerge, Ralf Habacker,
>> Christian Ehrlicher, Patrick Spendrin and others (yours faithfully
>> included) developed a tool which downloads the source, configures,
>> builds, installs and packages KDE and its dependencies. It makes a
>> world of difference when building KDE. Actually, it makes building KDE
>> on Windows possible. Once more: thank you very much guys, impressive
>> tool.
>>
>> There are two well-differentiated parts in emerge, the ‘engine’ and
>> the ‘recipes’.
>>
>> The ‘engine‘ takes care of downloading the sources (tarballs,
>> checkouts from Subversion and git clones, etc) , configuring and
>> building for the usual build systems (QMake, CMake, NMake makefiles,
>> etc), installing, bundling packages together and much more. All that
>> for four compilers (MSVC2008, MSVC2010, MinGW32 and MinGW-W64). It’s
>> the equivalent to Gentoo‘s emerge, Debian‘s dpkg +debhelper/cdbs or
>> Homebrew and MacPorts for Macintosh.
>>
>> The ‘recipes’ are the package-specific “instructions” a particular
>> piece of software needs to build: what’s the name of the tarball? URL
>> to download from? What versions are available? What build system to
>> use to configure and build? Does it need any Windows-specific patch?
>> They are written in Python using some helper modules ‘emerge’ provides
>> (the debhelper-like part I mentioned above).
>>
>> Currently, there are about 70 recipes in emerge, organized in our
>> ‘portage tree’ (bear in mind the names are taken from Gentoo but the
>> internals of the tool are completely different). With those 70
>> recipes, we are able to build most KDE modules. Problem is to provide
>> all the optional features, we are missing probably 200 to 250 more
>> recipes. Given that KDE on Windows is quite short on developers, we
>> have to decide: either we fix bugs and improve the integration of KDE
>> on Windows, or we keep track of the dependencies. I won’t lie: for KDE
>> on Windows, I’d rather focus on development than on packaging.
>>
>> Given that writing and maintaining recipes does not strictly require
>> programming skills (although they help ), during my talk at FOSDEMI
>> kept asking people to join the KDE on Windows team as packagers, even
>> if you know little to nothing about software development. If you think
>> about it, that’s what we have in Linux distributions: there are
>> hundreds (thousands?) of packagers in Debian, Fedora, openSuse, etc
>> which take care of the ‘recipes’ to build software developed by
>> someone else (‘upstream’, in the parlance). What we have in KDE on
>> Windows, where we are the KDE packagers, the KDE developers (upstream)
>> and the emerge developers, is actually an anomaly.
>>
>> Then Koen took the microphone and said: why don’t you open emerge to
>> other projects?
>>
>> And I there I realized he was damn right
>>
>> We have developed an awesome tool to download, configure, build,
>> package and install third party software on Windows, to manage
>> dependencies, to update, etc. For four compilers, no less. The
>> ‘engine’ of emerge is not really tied to KDE. We already have a lot of
>> recipes for software which is not KDE specific: openssl, Qt, bzip2,
>> libpng, mysql, etc.
>>
>> I see no actual reason to disallow Gnome, GStreamer,OpenSceneGraph,
>> LibreOffice and many others in (assuming someone wants to take care of
>> them, of course – no, do not look at me! I don’t have time!).
>> Currently, the only ‘barrier’ preventing those recipes in is ‘emerge’
>> is developed in the KDE repository and you need a KDE developer
>> account to commit your recipes. That’s about it.
>>
>> There is also a ‘perception’ problem: “if emerge is developed in KDE,
>> it’s because it’s a KDE-thingy, right?”. Well, no. One way to avoid
>> that would be to graduate emerge from KDE and make it an independent
>> project, one in which the current developers have accounts, and new
>> developers get an “emerge project” account instead of a KDE account to
>> commit recipes. Please note “graduating” does not mean “expelling”,
>> “firing” or anything peyorative. It does not mean that ‘emerge
>> developers’ (engine and recipes) are worse than KDE developers, or
>> less KDE developers than our god David Faure: in KDE, we consider
>> Debian, Fedora, openSuse, etc KDE packagers as equals, they are also
>> KDE developers and many of them are in the KDE eV(funny thing is I am
>> not).
>>
>> My wish for today: think of one application or library you’d like to
>> see in Windows and become its maintainer in emerge for Windows.
>>
>> For now, let’s do this in the kde-windows mailing list and if this
>> idea succeeds, then we’ll talk about graduating. You could also try to
>> add support for a new compiler (OpenWatcom, Intel C++, etc) but that’s
>> a lot more more and it’s not a priority now.
>>
>> PS: Yes, I know about CoApp, Microsoft‘s similar effort, with some
>> magic involved. I’ve been watching and trying it since day 1. I’m
>> really interested. It’s just not there yet and I do not have spare
>> time to helpGarrett (hey Microsoft, hire me and I’ll have all the time
>> in the world! )
>>
>> --8<----
>>
>> --
>> Pau Garcia i Quiles
>> http://www.elpauer.org
>> (Due to my workload, I may need 10 days to answer)
>> _______________________________________________
>> Kde-windows mailing list
>> Kde-windows at kde.org
>> https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kde-windows
> 
> I don't know if other people have commented on the blog page instead, but as far as I'm concerned I find the idea to 
> make complete sense and be technically doable. 
> 
> Indeed a first good step towards opening emerge to non-kde communities would be to move it to an independent repository. 
> The question is which one :)
> 
> Anyway FWIW I like the idea!
> Cheers
> 
> -- 
> Romain Pokrzywka | romain.pokrzywka at kdab.com | Senior Qt Software Engineer & Trainer
> Klarälvdalens Datakonsult AB, a KDAB Group company
> Tel. Sweden (HQ) +46-563-540090, USA +1-866-777-KDAB(5322)
> KDAB - Qt Experts - Platform-independent software solutions

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