KDE Usability Improvements

[obennett]

On Tuesday 19 April 2005 08:09 pm, James Richard Tyrer wrote:
> obennett wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:08:47 -0700, James Richard Tyrer
> >
> > <tyrerj at acm.org>  wrote:
> >> We seem to be headed towards what I regard as a serious issue.
> >> Those that write the code seem to feel that only they should make
> >> all design decisions.  While this is probably OK with a small
> >> project, the KDE  project has become much too large for this to
> >> work.  Therefore, this issue must be addressed.  Those coders that
> >>  feel that they can not allow someone else to tell them what to do
> >>  are going to have to reassess their attitude.  If the coders are
> >> not able to change their attitude, the project will eventually
> >> fail.
> >
> > We seem to be heading towards another James Richard Tyrer
> > bitch-a-thon, as humorous as I found the first few I've got to say,
> >  it's getting old now.
>
> I guess that if it is something you agree with, it is a blog, if it is
> something you disagree with then it is just bitching on the Internet.
>
Nah. It's bitching either way but with a blog I know not to expect anything 
important. With mails to a mailing list there is the expectation of something 
greater. 
> >> I digress to note that I used the term 'coders' rather than
> >> developers  because although 'coders' *are" developers, all
> >> developers are not  'coders'.  We must realize that designers,
> >> testers, and bug reporters  are also developers.  In a large
> >> project, division of labor is  necessary.  While I am able to do
> >> all four jobs, there are people that  are not.  There contributions
> >>  should be accepted even though they do not  write code.  In my
> >> case, I am new to GUI programing, but I am not new to  programing,
> >>  so there are many developers that are much more able to  write
> >> code than I am.  However, I believe that I am good at design work,
> >> and this has been summarily dismissed by the coders.
> >>
> >> I have been criticized (even flamed) for asserting that designing
> >> is work -- work that is at least as important coding.  This makes
> >> no sense  unless those that do it are just protecting their turf.
> >> If we are all  peers in this project then people should not need to
> >>  protect their turf.
> >
> > I think you've been criticized/flamed for being a pain in the arse.
>
> Yes, you can regard me as a pain in the arse.  But, actually you are not
> talking about me, that is the 'shoot the messenger syndrome'.  When you
> criticize what I say, you are actually saying that what I said is a
> pain.  Attention to quality issues *is* a pain in the arse, but if you
> want to do a good job, you have to live with this pain.
See comment below.
>
> > Seriously, you take the closing of your bug reports too personally
>
> Well I didn't till it was accompanied by personal and insulting remarks
> that should have never been posted to BugZilla.
>
> > and I'm  personally getting tired of hearing about it.
>
> I'm not talking about closing bug reports; why are you?
Because this (latest) tirade comes oh so close after yet another message 
complaining about that. Any validity this message might have had to me was 
killed by containing the same propaganda as so many of your other mails. By 
many, I of course mean the ones that I remember (in this at least you've been 
successful as I can't recall a message where you haven't been complaining 
about something.)
>
> > At this point I don't even  care if your concerns are even valid
> > anymore.
>
> I would guess that this is because you NEVER did.  In that case, you are
> clearly an example of what I am talking about: you represent my remarks.
I actually did once. Now I do represent your remarks. It is you that has 
created me. Congrats.
>
> >> The current situation is that some formal design work has been
> >> done:
> >>
> >> http://developer.kde.org/documentation/standards/kde/style/basics/index.
> >>html
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, it appears that (some) coders do not follow these
> >> standards.  The people working on the HIG are developing new and
> >> more extensive standards.  These efforts are important, probably
> >> more important than coding.  But, if those developers that write
> >> code do not  follow standards, what good does this most important
> >> part of the design  process do -- what does it accomplish?
> >>
> >> Since many developers say that if you don't write code, your work
> >> doesn't matter, I have written some code.  I have also made some
> >> icons  (and borrowed some from Marco Martin).  I note that in
> >> writing this  small amount of code that I did what I have said
> >> other coders need to  do: I have used someone else's design work. I
> >>  also added a small amount  of my design work as needed.
> >>
> >> Perhaps as a professional engineer, it is easier for me to work
> >> according to someone else's design.  Perhaps it is because I see
> >> the two  separate jobs (even if I am doing both of them myself
> >>
> >> :-)).  IAC, I have  made changes to: KGhostView, KPDF, Kview, &
> >>
> >> KuickShow on my system and I  have posted a tarball:
> >>
> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~tyrerj/kde/Improvements00.tar.bz2
> >>
> >> with one of my icons, some of Marco Martin's icons, and 4 patches.
> >>  These  are the changes which I have made to 3.4 BRANCH on my
> >> system. Now that  I have done the coding, I am hoping that my ideas
> >>  will be more seriously considered.  I feel that all of these
> >> changes should be added for  3.4.1.  I note that this is a work in
> >>  progress and I am not asserting  that all work has been done here,
> >>  only that I have made an improvement.
> >
> > Well if these changes are not bugfixes then your feelings are wrong.
>
> If a program's failure to follow the KDE UI Guidelines is a bug, then
> they are bug fixes.  If missing icons are a bug fix, then there is a bug
> fix.  If a toolbar missing often used functions is a bug, then there is
> a bug fix.
>
> If the fix for this bug:
>
> http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104114
>
> is a bug fix, then it is a bug fix -- tautologically speaking. :-)
>
> If duplicated icons is a bug, then there is a fix for that as well.
>
> What I did was write fixes for the bugs rather than just reporting them.
>   I am at a loss to see why you find anything wrong with that.
I don't. Yay for you. You're my new hero.
>
> > If they are bugfixes then you should be adding these patches to
> > bugreports not posting them on kde-quality (mayhaps you're looking
> > for a code "quality" review), the "coders" can do that once they see
> >  it on bugzilla.
>
> If writing a bug report is the way to go, I will do that.  But, perhaps
> there is a better way to submit contributions.  Do you have suggestions?
>   IAC, you are welcome to look at this and give your review although I
> intended to post a link to it to: 'kde-usability' for that.
>
> >> I can write code, it is just that I feel that I am currently better
> >>  at  design work, and testing.  I think that some developers
> >> understand this.    But, this is not about me, it is about the fact
> >>  that in a large  project, design work becomes the most important
> >> part of the work and we  all need to understand that.
> >
> > I can write code, but quite frankly I am really too lazy to be
> > bothered learning how to do it properly.
>
> You are presumptuously dismissing what I said.  This meets the
> dictionary definition of arrogance.  Also, if you knew me, you comment
> would be considered very rude.  Any problems that I have writing code
> has nothing to do with laziness.  I have been writing code since you had
> to punch holes in those cards as the only available input device. :-)
>
> > I feel that I might as well find other less "grey matter" requiring
> > ways of contributing to the KDE.
>
> Please try to understand what I said.  Your arrogant presumption is
> WRONG!!  Good design work requires just as much, if not more, "gray
> matter" than coding does.  That is why it is called "Software
> Engineering".  Writing a good program requires a lot more than knowing
> how to write code (even if you know how to do it "properly"). Writing a
> good bug report is not a simple task either.
I can't be wrong since I was talking about ME. Everything isn't always about 
you y'know :-)
>
> > Has this revelation done anything to actually help the project?
>
> Like all such ideas, it will only help if it is listened to.
The "revelation" I was referring to was me not coding. I was drawing a 
parallel with what you said to say this, telling _me_ what you can and can't 
do means nothing unless I actually see proof of this (yes, like the BR 
referred to above).
>
> > None whatsoever, writing this has actually minimized the amount of
> > time available to do whatever it is I would be doing to contribute.
> > Thank you for furthering my unproductivity James.
>
> Nobody asked you to read it.  And most certainly, nobody required that
> you write a mingent response to it.
No one required you to read mine or etc... :-)
>
> >> I also note that I feel that the example work that I have done is
> >> something that is currently very important to the KDE project.
> >> There are a lot of similar small issues that need to be fixed. This
> >>  will, despite what some coders think, greatly improve the project.
> >>  Doing a lot of small improvements has a cumulative effect.
> >>
> >> My goal is to see KDE become a professional quality project.  To
> >> accomplish this we need the work of designers, testers, and bug
> >> reporters as well as coders.
> >>
> >> So, that is my manifesto.  I ask that you given it careful
> >> consideration.
> >
> > I ask that you continue posting rants and throwing hissy fits.
>
> Sorry, I won't be doing that.  Unless you consider my blog to be a rant
> or hissy fit.  I will be trying to make what you consider actual
> contributions -- which I believe I have done.  If these are not
> accepted, I will move on.
So you're contributions _must_ be accepted or you will just leave. That's 
kinda childish isn't it? Maybe some people would like to see you gone, I 
personally would like to see you shut up and just contribute to the project 
(silently) :-) I, however, never expect to see this day come and that's ok. 
Community needs to be made of up different types of people etc. It's around 
that time in the flamebait mails where I say something nice, but I've got a 
math lab to finish (the same math lab that Maple ate upon saving yesterday 
which got me in such a bad mood) so I'll just hit the send button :-p