[Kde-games-devel] kigo

[Arturo Silva]

Hello all.  :)

Grouping issue, eh?
Strange thing that the background doesn't have any subgroups besides
the master one that holds all the "background" stuff together.  I did
however notice some paths did deviate ever so slightly outside the
main path's boundary, so this I've corrected.

I also had many anomalies at first with the game chips -- if I so much
as moved them slightly, the pieces would appear very big during actual
gameplay.  Just in case your background issue is caused by a similar
bug, I also made sure to resize/reposition the background so that it's
IDENTICAL to the one in the original SVGZ.  Hopefully this version
won't give you problems:

http://pigux.com/kde4/storage/kigo/kigo_default_20091025.svgz

[this also includes touch ups to the cup)

And that should be all I can do for you for now.  If you need anything
else, give me a holler, but by default I need to move on to help other
rising kdegames.  :P



==========================
Inge Wallin wrote
==========================
> Gnugo is around 10 kyu if I remember correctly.  This strength is reached by a
> player after approximately a year if you play regularly.

> However, you can make gnugo weaker by using the --level option is I remember
> correctly.  Perhaps kigo could make a nice interface for that so the user can
> select "easy", "medium" and "dabbling" (there is no real "hard" setting for
> gnugo :-) ).

lol!  ^^

I actually finally managed to beat the computer today,... after I
selected the 9x9 grid and gave myself a 9 stone handicap,  (so sue me,
I was desperate to see what happens when you win).   ^^

There is that slider that presumably changes the computer's
difficulty, but in all honesty it really doesn't seem to do anything,
as the computer seems unable to play anything but perfect moves.  A
little sprinkling of random moves in the AI wouldn't hurt at that
level.  -.-


> Wow!  If you manage that , you will create a beautiful game indeed.  I wonder
> how difficult it would be to use OpenGL to create 3D pieces and be able to
> zoom around the table at will...

Well I won't say its as perfect as in those pictures, pixel-by-pixel,
but I think I did okay given the constraints of file size, time and
the vector format in general.  I'm especially proud of my chips, which
I think came out just right.  ^^

For proper texturing, I made generous use of dotted strokes given
their relatively low memory and file size cost.
[using complex paths instead adds significantly to the node count,
which in turn bloats up everything else)


> Definitely lol :-D.  (and I say that as a former gnugo programmer)  Remember
> that gnugo took 1st place in the computer olympiad at one time.  Sadly enough,
> gnugo development has stalled much during the last few years.

Wow!  Nice to be chatting with one of the ex-programmers of gnugo.  ^^


=================================================================
Matthew Woehlke <dontquotemyemail at unobfuscated.net>  wrote
=================================================================
>
> IMHO if you play enough to need a tougher opponent, you are probably
> able to find such opponents online and don't need to be playing against
> a computer ;-).

Took the words right out of my mouth, lol. ^____^


> Which... is the point. Right now I don't see kigo as at all useable by
> casual players. (I suppose the same would be true of, say, chess.
> Actually it's true of kfourinline also, which is why I never play it.)

> I think the basic problem (with both kfourinline and kigo) is that the
> computer, even on 'easy', doesn't make mistakes the way a novice human
> player does.

> For kigo, a better "easy" level of difficulty might be to take the gnugo
> moves and have a random chance of a: taking the best one, b: taking a
> suggested move at random, c: taking a totally random move.

Ah, so I it WASN'T just me about KFourinLine.  And here I always
thought I was just borderline moronic.  :P
But yes, not sure how much can be done to the GnuGo AI itself, but I
wonder if you can somehow force it to think with the above paradign at
preset percentages of the time during the Weaker slider settings.
After the slider is past the midpoint, THEN the default GnuGo
difficulty can kick in and challenge experienced players. ^^

Oh and yes, thank you for fixing the Undo feature. ^__~



==========================
Tadeusz Andrzej Kadłubowski wrote
==========================
> If you choose a small board (say, 9x9) and 9 stones of handicap,
> you'll very likely to win even against the highest difficulty setting
> of GNU go engine. In such tight space 9 stones for free make a huge
> difference.

> The preferred way for a total beginner to play is to set the engine
> difficulty to the lowest (which is plenty enough for novice players),
> choose a rather small board (it's easier to grasp for novice players)
> and a very high handicap. Then, as the player builds skill he lowers
> the handicap and enlarges the board. When you can win on standard
> 19x19 board with no handicap, then you're ready to bump the engine
> difficulty level, or start giving handicap to the engine.

hehe, that sounds familiar.   ;)

Admittedly, that does sound like a good, code-free proposition as long
as it doesn't interfere with the "professional" feel of Go gaming.
I'm not sure if defaulting with a handicap for the human player should
be encouraged, but certainly defaulting to a smaller board wouldn't be
such a bad thing to try.

Or better yet....


> What kigo should offer is a dialog to change difficulty settings,
> possibly with a set of presets. 19x19, no handicap, default GNU go
> engine difficulty should be called normal. 9x9, 9 handicap, lowest
> GNU go engine difficulty can be called very easy.

> Such a dialog could also be used to configure komi value, byo yomi
> time, etc.

Easy to understand presets seems more like the best compromise solution.  ^^b



==========================
Mauricio Piacentini wrote
==========================
> These black/white SVG pieces for KReversi were I believe my first art
> contributions to KDE, and were done during Akademy/Dublin :) Knowing
> that they are still useful brings a warm feeling!

Eeep... sorry to say I saw this after I changed them.  I feel bad now... ^^;



==========================
Ian Wadham wrote
==========================

> You have the right idea re the wood and the pieces.  Go is a game with
> a long cultural tradition and I believe it is important to respect that.  My
> own Go set, which I bought in Japan a long time ago but have now lost,
> had elm wood boxes and pieces made of glassy material.  I think the
> black were obsidian and the white milky quartz.  Although the black
> pieces had a matte finish and the white pieces were glossy, the specularity
> had the same look and feel for both.  I guess shiny black is somehow
> perceived as "shinier" than shiny white.

Hi!  Wish I had read this earlier too. ^^'

Per Inge's advisement, I actually opted for polished slate black chips
and shako white chips. The decision was a good once since I love the
textures on both -- however, they don't have the level of gloss of
obsidian or quartz.


> Also, IIRC, it is traditional to use the lids of the boxes to hold captured
> pieces, which are used in scoring at the end of the game.  So it would
> be a nice touch if the upside-down lids were visible somewhere.

hehe... I did draw the lid of the cup/bowl at least.  I wonder if that
counts...? :P


> I query whether it is appropriate to have a time-clock.  I have not
> heard of or seen one being used in Go and would be generally
> opposed to it, for the same reasons Parker advanced re Palapeli.
> However I see clocks are used in formal competitions ...  Me, I just
> like to enjoy a leisurely game at home.

As long as I've seen pictures online of Go players playing alongside
such clocks, I'll have to assume that some people out there do use
them for xyz reason.  But it all comes down to whether Sascha can
actually make use of a clock function on the programming end -- since
chances are he might not, I made sure not to spend too much time on
that clock.  ;)


> Very nice.  I like the square-cornered board.  The cup and lid and
> pieces are very nice and the table is a lot of fun.

Thank you. ^^
Yes, I chose to do a Kaya wood board since it's very clean and
refined, and also easy to reproduce in a vector format using strokes
and several of Inkscape 0.47's enhanced nudge features.

The pieces, as previously mentioned, are slate and shako.

The background initially had a few other trimmings, but I had to tone
the detail down a lot since it was impacting performance and load-up
speed.  Besides, given the Go board already covered up much of it, it
was kind of pointless to keep the extra detail around.  :P


> I think you should tone down from "high gloss" on the cup and lid,
> though, maybe to semi-matte, i.e. a more "cabinet-maker/craftsman"
> type of wood-finish.

Well I did go with lacquer after all, but okay.  :)
I had to use a reference shot for the cup, so less gloss should make
it a little more distinctive.

And again, assuming the game can ever make use of the cup+lid.  If
not, I guess it'll have to stay as an easter egg for anyone interested
in peeking inside the SVGZ.  ;)