Review Request 129251: Remove Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for Cut

Wed Oct 26 08:06:51 UTC 2016

> On okt 24, 2016, 11 a.m., Albert Astals Cid wrote:
> > -1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut the selection and store it in the clipboard"
> 
> Elvis Angelaccio wrote:
>     Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then?
> 
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>     This question was asked last year on the mailing list https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses Shift+Del for permanently delete files.
> 
> Elvis Angelaccio wrote:
>     Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas suggested?
> 
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>     1. Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut.
>     2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and app specific
>     2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like.
>     
>     (My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in _every_ KDE app unless the app defines its own behavior)
> 
> Albert Astals Cid wrote:
>     My suggestion is:
>     
>     * Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default
>     * DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default
>     
>     **if** both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not the user that set it on purpose)
>     
>     That should be *doable* hopefully.
> 
> Mark Gaiser wrote:
>     I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted.
>     Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the delete key to "move to trash" and a <special>+delete key to permanantly remove the file.
>     
>     Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should _not_ use that key combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something.
>     
>     Just my 2ct.
> 
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>     Let's do a quick poll: https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg
> 
> Albert Astals Cid wrote:
>     > I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted.
>     
>     Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash?
> 
> Albert Astals Cid wrote:
>     > Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent delete
>     
>     I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more do you want?
> 
> Luigi Toscano wrote:
>     IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or woth some tool that does not require a google account.
>     
>     That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps provide the same shortcut anyway.
> 
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>     >IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org
>     
>     Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight.
> 
> Mark Gaiser wrote:
>     Hi Albert,
>     
>     You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad.
>     
>     Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut shortcut. That is not right!
> 
> Albert Astals Cid wrote:
>     > Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut shortcut. That is not right!
>     
>     You just made me reboot into windows 10
>     
>      * Open Microsoft Edge
>      * Type "hola" in the url bar
>      * Select it
>      * Press Shift+Delete
>      * Close Microsoft Edge
>      * Open Firefox
>      * Press Ctrl+V
>      * Voilà, "hola" appeared on the url bar of firefox
> 
> Matthew Dawson wrote:
>     So I think the best solution going forward is to give primary shortcuts precedence over alternate shortcuts.  Then Shift+Delete can be an alternate shortcut for Cut and a primary for ForceDelete, which will behave as expected in just about every application.  Thoughts?
> 
> Heiko Tietze wrote:
>     The majority expects to purge with shift+del (~75%). You may read this result as approval to remove this shortcut.
>     
>     I would interpret this quick poll as only a few knows the standard and expect a rather destructive function. While it's not harmful to cut an object instead of purge, the intention might be safety. But vice versa, if the user expects to cut and get purge, she might end in a quite uncomfortable situation. So I still vote for less a comfortable shortcut for permanently delete, which in turn would allow to keep the standard.

Looks like we're both right, Albert.

Shift+del indeed works as cut (tried it in explorer (on the url bar), chrome, firefox). All cut text with shift+delete.
In explorer on files shift+delete isn't cut (ctrl+x) but delete without moving to the trask. Aka, permanently delete.

Wow, shortcuts are a confusing mess!

So i'd say that shift+delete as global action is an alias for ctrl+x and applications can override it to do something more destructive.
Net result (for Dolphin that is): no change ;)

- Mark

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https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/#review100230
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On okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m., Elvis Angelaccio wrote:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
> https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> 
> (Updated okt 24, 2016, 10:47 a.m.)
> 
> 
> Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson.
> 
> 
> Bugs: 357747
>     https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747
> 
> 
> Repository: kconfig
> 
> 
> Description
> -------
> 
> This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This shortcut was set back in 2001.
> 
> Reasons for removing it:
> 
> * The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete"
> * For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the `DeleteFile` action. This causes conflicts in applications.
> * For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already resolve this conflict on their own.
> 
> Credits to Jan for the investigation: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2
> 
> 
> Diffs
> -----
> 
>   src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp 92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250 
> 
> Diff: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/
> 
> 
> Testing
> -------
> 
> Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Elvis Angelaccio
> 
>

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