Fwd: Re: Application duplication (was: Re: cdbakeoven)

[Matthias Welwarsky]

Marc Mutz wrote:

> 
> On Saturday 20 April 2002 11:52, Ralf Nolden wrote:
> <snip>
>> Mom only wants to write a
>> receipe and she doesn't care even for shortcut configuration.
> 
> Just because Windows dumbed down users to the point that they can't even
> browse the web without a help wizard doesn't mean we should do the same.

No. That's not Windows fault. You're mixing cause and effect here. The basic 
user want's to _use_ his/her computer.

>> But as other
>> people do, we offer the functionality in editors and much more to satisfy
>> the 10% of the potential users who could ever make use of that, which is
>> correct. The best tool for the users, please, but only one for each task.
> 
> Sorry, I have to disagree.
> 
> Free software is also about choice.
> Unix and particularly Linux have always been about choice. Forcing one
> program on the user is just what Windows does. Let the user decide what
> she wants to use. There's improvement possible in the way that the
> different programs doing essentially one task are presented to the user,
> but "fixing" this by throwing away the choice is the wrong way. Many
> people really hate windows because it doesn't let them do what they want
> to do.

Almost as many people hate KDE for not providing _one_ complete application, 
but just a variety of tools that all fulfill a task only up to a certain 
extent. CD burning programs are just an example. How many vector drawing 
applications do we have? Is there only one that is as useful and complete 
as xfig, not to mention Visio?

> I understand that the "power user" can always go to apps.kde.org and fetch
> another package. But the fact is that most people don't bother,
> nonetheless they explore their new system thoroughly. They try various
> screensavers and stick with the one they like best. They try various
> browsers and stick with the one they like best (or use them
> interchangeably). Forcing a particular selection of apps without
> intersection in functionality just dumbs users down to the point of
> accepting what they are presented.

You miss the point. How can you sensibly require the user to use different 
applications e.g. for mastering Audio CDs, mastering Data CDs, Copying CDs, 
etc, just for an example.

> Another point is: You _can't_ really steer free software developers. Some
> try it, some even succeed. But KDE has always been a project where there
> was _no_ steering at the top level. I think we agree that it should stay
> like this. But that means that you simply cannot prevent the random
> developer from writing the 20th irc frontend. If you want to persuade
> developers to work on the included apps, then probably the 20th irc
> forntend will not be written. But it's questionable at best whether the
> particular developer then stays with KDE.

Nobody will hinder anyone to code the 20th irc frontend, but why should it 
be sensible to have 20 irc clients in kdenetwork? You just force KDE 
release policies on the developers, putting a shitload of work upon 
translators and cause enormous frictional loss in coordinating the bunch of 
individuals to be ready in time for the next release of KDE.

If you include any application into the core modules just because it's 
working, people won't team up to write good, complete applications any 
more. KDE will stop being a community project, it'll become a useless bunch 
of half-baked applications "released" together.

> To summarize:
> - - Reducing choice dumbs down the user to the state of consumers.

I strongly disagree. You seem to have lost yourself in the beauty of the 
code. But KDE is all about users.

> - - If you lift the barrier for inclusion into KDE CVS, we will loose
>   developers. But we need _more_ of them, not less.

No, because developers will gain status once their application got 
"uplifted" into the core, and they will accept the strain that comes from 
maintaining an application withing the core CVS more lightly.

regards,
        matze
-- 
Matthias Welwarsky
Fachschaft Informatik FH Darmstadt
Email: matze at stud.fbi.fh-darmstadt.de

"all software sucks equally, but some software is more equal"