Collecting requirements for a KDE-wide instant messaging solution (was: Re: radical proposal: move IRC to Rocket.Chat)

[Christian Loosli]

Am Mittwoch, 9. August 2017, 16:12:51 CEST schrieb Martin Klapetek:
> On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Christian Loosli <kde at fuchsnet.ch> wrote:
> > Okay, this is more and more drifting away from being remotely productive
> > or
> > helpful, but as I provided a working solution on top level, I feel free to
> > tacke a few points that are, in my opinion, odd at best.
> > 
> > First let's tackle that mysterious group of < 20 year olds:
> > > > Is there any such organization at all?
> > > 
> > > Sure there is! Look at the tech startup scene, or the games industry.
> > > But okay, let’s say “predominantly younger than 30” to make it an easier
> > > task.
> > 
> > But KDE is not a tech startup. As people correctly wrote, KDE has a very
> > long
> > history and contributors of all age. I'd rather be that than one of the
> > many
> > tech startups with a bunch of little to no experience but fancy new chat
> > systems, to be honest.  Do we really want and need to cater these mystical
> > tweens so much?
> 
> Yes. Old contributors will slowly fade away for various
> reasons, be it life, be it lack of energy, be it other commitments.

Yes. Young talents will fade away for various reasons, be it life, having kids 
and a family or starting a career. 

> Who's going to pick all those projects up after them? I'd like
> to think that young enthusiasts with lots of energy and potential,
> exactly what those heroes starting the original KDE were.

Who is going to be there for these new talents that lack experience? 

You need both, thus catering for one group specifically is, in my opinion, 
stupid. 

> > Are they the holy grail that saves KDE and worth alienating
> > the people who are not this particular group?
> 
> It's not mutually exclusive.

This thread has a couple of very good examples of people feeling alienated due 
to it, so I'd dare to say it is a problem. 

> > Even if that is the case, to answer your question:  Yes, there are such
> > companies, plenty even. Basically a lot of companies which are exactly not
> > in
> > the small bubble that is  "tech start up", but other industries. Also
> > companies that actually have to do business with other companies, where
> > mail
> > simply still is the standard.
> > 
> > 
> > Then, on the subject of emojis, stickers or even the protocol used being
> > so
> > important:
> > 
> > Let's see what others do. Let's take our main, most famous friendly
> > competitor
> > GNOME. They even run their very own IRC network still, and actively code
> > new
> > IRC applications.
> > Mozilla? Own IRC network.
> > Reddit, quite the place for young techies and startup? Created their own
> > IRC
> > network. Hardly turning off or away people, it seems. If we fail to
> > attract
> > fresh blood, then maybe the problem is not actually "we use IRC".
> > 
> > But even if it would: to be honest, if someone decides what project they
> > want
> > to contribute due based on what chat protocol they use internally, I'm
> > personally not sure if that is a well suited candidate due to rather odd
> > priorities.
> 
> I think your view is a different angle - it's not that they would
> choose a project to contribute to based on what chat they use, but
> they would choose a project they feel most comfortable in. And yes
> day to day communication does make a big part of that comfort.

Dear god no. Most of that is actually the content, and not the protocol of 
that communication. The bickering we have on mailing lists, including people 
threatening to leave the project and year old feudes cooking up occasionally 
is way more a reason to stay away from a project than the protocols they may 
use.

> No matter how you look at it, IRC /is/ behind any other IM apps/protocols
> today. Young engineers communicate and prefer to communicate
> differently than you or me. 

I lead a team of young  (19 - 26) engineers, and I'm afraid I have to disagree 
with such blanket statements. Not to mention that freenode, _the_ very IRC 
thing, has a big amount of staffers that are between 20 and 25 and also people 
below 20. 

> I think it's absolutely crucial to understand
> them and their views/ways/whatever. Neglecting them would be a mistake.

Alienating long term contributors, switching around protocols fragmenting the 
community and not gaining new people regardless, because it was other things 
that kept them away, would be a mistake. 

> Cheers
> --
> Martin Klapetek

Kind regards, 

Christian