[kde-community] RFC: Distribution outreach program

Wed Feb 3 14:18:23 GMT 2016

On 3 February 2016 at 15:01, Martin Graesslin <mgraesslin at kde.org> wrote:

> On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 10:46:26 AM CET Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
> > > On Feb 3, 2016, at 10:16, Martin Graesslin <mgraesslin at kde.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 9:44:13 AM CET Nicolás Alvarez wrote:
> > >>>> On Feb 1, 2016, at 15:31, Cornelius Schumacher <schumacher at kde.org>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>> On Monday 01 February 2016 13:04:37 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm not against automated testing at all, I just think it doesn't
> work
> > >>>> at
> > >>>> the highest level and bears pitfalls of distros gaming the system,
> or
> > >>>> people actually care more about the number of points they get than
> the
> > >>>> actual user experience.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think we have to readjust the perspective here a bit. I really
> > >>> appreciate
> > >>> Thomas' initiative because there definitely could be better
> > >>> collaboration
> > >>> between distributions and KDE. We have the common goal to get our
> > >>> software
> > >>> to users in the best possible shape. We shouldn't see that as a
> gaming,
> > >>> blaming, or judging, but we should see this as an opportunity to work
> > >>> together in a better way. How this is then expressed to the public
> is a
> > >>> second thought, and should be decided together with the
> distributions.
> > >>>
> > >>> So defining and discussing criteria which make up a good experience,
> > >>> listing and communicating requirements, talking to each other about
> what
> > >>> is missing, what needs to be fixed, and where it should be fixed
> without
> > >>> playing upstream- downstream-ping-pong, sharing and possibly aligning
> > >>> roadmaps, all these things and more could happen through the
> > >>> distribution
> > >>> outreach program. This would be really wonderful.
> > >>>
> > >>> In essence I think this is about better communication between KDE and
> > >>> distributions, so that we can productively work on what needs to be
> > >>> fixed,
> > >>> avoid misunderstandings, and keep a common momentum.
> > >>
> > >> Here is an idea that shouldn't be novel but I have yet to see
> mentioned.
> > >>
> > >> If you see a distro doesn't package KDE software correctly, doesn't
> > >> integrate with the system, doesn't provide a good user experience for
> > >> whatever reason... file a bug on the distro's bug tracker. Instead of
> > >> putting the distro on a user-facing "they don't do things good enough"
> > >> list.
> > >
> > > You haven't seen this one proposed, because it just doesn't work. Do
> you
> > > really think nobody reports bugs about incorrectly packaged stuff? Or
> that
> > > we don't talk to the distros? Do you know how often we get answers like
> > > "well I would like to, but we have $POLICY". I could give you examples
> > > like outdated Qt in Kubuntu, broken cursors on Fedora, missing Wayland
> in
> > > openSUSE Leap, no way to suspend in Devuan, etc. etc. - I could name
> you
> > > a $POLICY issue for each distro.
> > >
> > > Sorry once you have done this for years, you realize this approach
> doesn't
> > > work. Personally I'm pretty fed up with the state our software is in,
> in
> > > various distributions. I'm sick of having to take the blame for it.
> This
> > > approach hasn't worked, we need to look for new ways.
> >
> > So we're going to shame them into complying by leaving them out of a
> list?
> > They'll pay attention to our wiki more than to their policies? Several
> > people in this thread mentioned distro policies as a reason why this
> won't
> > work, in fact.
>
> No, that's not what I'm saying. First of all we need to realize that we
> have a
> big problem (yay for Thomas), second we need to find a solution to the
> problem.
> Currently we are brainstorming ideas and I think that needs to continue.
> But
> pretending there is no problem and continue as we used to work, does
> obviously
> not solve the problems.
>
> Personal note: as some might have noticed I'm deeply disappointed with the
> state of our software in distros. And I'm envious to Unity which has Ubuntu
> and Cinnamon which has Mint and GNOME Shell which has Fedora Workstation.
> And
> OSX which has OSX and Windows which has Windows.
>

Yep, these feelings float within the KDE fans community. That's why I
sometimes can't stop people from treating initiatives like Neon as "the"
KDE distro 

or even a "KDE OS" ;)

We're maybe a bit too internal brand these days, like the *Dolphin Group *is
in automotive industry (for a good reason) -- great but not the brand you
hear from Car Dealers, no excitement, even if the products work, they work
under the mask. Our deployment model creates the "mask", we're forced to
play game we don't like too much...

> Cheers
> Martin
>
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>

-- 
regards, Jaroslaw Staniek

KDE:
: A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators
: and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org
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Kexi:
: A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi
Qt Certified Specialist:
: http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek
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