Is there a project that is jovie successor? (fwd)

[Jude DaShiell]

Good to know, jovie won't be any use here.  I haven't had sight for any of
this life.


On Fri, 22 Oct 2021, Jeremy Whiting wrote:

> Sorry Simion, not Simon. No disrespect intended.
>
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 7:43 AM Jeremy Whiting <jpwhiting at kde.org> wrote:
>
> > Gustav, Simon,
> >
> > Thank you so much for the insight. I definitely hadn't considered those
> > cases. I'll give it some thought today and decide one of the following to
> > remedy the situation.
> >
> > 1. Add the missing features and functionality to KMouth.
> > 2. Revive Jovie and clean it up quite a bit since it has bit rotted
> > significantly in the past 5 years or so.
> >
> > I'm leaning towards 1 now since KMouth needs some love and attention
> > anyway. If we go that direction KMouth would need the following features to
> > be feature complete with the use cases described above.
> >
> > a) A queue of what will be spoken as well as control over the queue to
> > remove entries, etc.
> > b) Voice settings to be able to switch between voices quickly.
> > c) A tray icon and/or more shortcut keys to be able to speak, play, stop,
> > pause, etc. like Jovie had.
> > d) Speak clipboard contents.
> >
> > for b I really didn't like that Jovie had voice settings that were
> > separate from Speech-Dispatcher's settings. In my mind we should be able to
> > control what voice settings (language, volume, pitch, etc.) directly by
> > manipulating speech-dispatcher configuration. But for that to work the
> > configuration gui would need to directly manipulate speech-dispatcher's
> > .conf files and have a way to tell it to reload them when we change them.
> > I'm not sure if that's already implemented in speech-dispatcher itself yet
> > or not. If not it shouldn't be too tricky to add though. The other items
> > should be pretty straightforward.
> >
> > thanks,
> > Jeremy
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 4:50 AM Gustav Degreef <gustav97 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Thank you Jeremy for the opportunity to address this directly.
> >>
> >> In my opinion, Jovie/jovie placement is indispensable for those of us
> >> who are partially sighted (not blind).  In my opinion, a screen reader
> >> (very useful for the blind) actually gets in the way for people like me.
> >>    Jovie does a very simple and straightforward task - it reads the most
> >> recent content of the clipboard.  Jovie allows for selecting text (and
> >> reading it out) in virtually all of the major applications/tasks (and
> >> virtually all others) that a primarily desktop user needs for every day
> >> use.  Those functions/tasks where  jovie/replacement is needed are:
> >>
> >> 1) Text edit/read - in my case (imc) Kate
> >> 2) e-mail client - imc thunderbird
> >> 3) browser - imc Firefox
> >> 4) pdf reader - imc Okular
> >> 5) word processor - imc LibreOffice
> >> 6) text from "program to user output" (error messages, text boxes,
> >> command line output, etc).
> >> 7) miscellaneous programs not so often used.
> >>
> >> In my experience/opinion:
> >> Kmouth is cumbersome and unwieldy and requires too many steps.
> >> using the command line adds several steps that disturb the flow of work,
> >> it is not simple to have to switch windows and then have to type a
> >> command.
> >>
> >> Indispensable (for partially sighted) aspects of Jovie or Jovie
> >> replacement:
> >>
> >> 1) SIMPLE interface with as few clicks or steps or commands to get
> >> speech output. - ideal use is with mouse or keyboard shortcut. Currently
> >> jovie takes three simple steps with mouse or keyboard shortcut - text
> >> select, text copy,  then start/etc. speech output.
> >> 2) being able to select all or ONLY part of a piece of text - with the
> >> mouse or shortcut.
> >> 3) Easily start/stop and pause/resume speech output with mouse or
> >> shortcut.
> >> 4) Sits in system tray or functions from menu that appears on right
> >> click of mouse (or keyboard shortcut).
> >>
> >>
> >> There are currently add ons to programs that COULD fulfill most of these
> >> requirements,  however they do not all work well:
> >>
> >> 1) ) Kate - no plugin, no built in function for tts.
> >> 2) Thunderbird - Read Aloud plugin: very limited, it reads the ENTIRE
> >> message with some headers. Does not allow for selecting a portion of the
> >> text, can't stop, can't pause/resume.  Totally inadequate for a bottom
> >> posted list message.
> >> 3) Firefox - Read Aloud plugin:  works quite well, has all needed
> >> functions.
> >> 4) Okular - nice built in tts function, easy to select text, right click
> >> mouse to output speech.  However it outputs (at least on opensuse) two
> >> simultaneous speech streams (of the same text) with different voices and
> >> it is impossible to understand.
> >> 5) LibreOffice - has a tts plugin but it is cumbersome and adds several
> >> steps.  It has a nice feature to output the contents of the clipboard
> >> but it requires too many steps.
> >> 6) program to user output - kmouth or command line seem the only
> >> alternative to Jovie
> >> 7) miscellaneous programs (with no plugins or built in tts)  - same as 6)
> >>
> >> It seems clear that a lot of developers are aware/are working on tts for
> >> various programs, and that is very encouraging and great. However, it is
> >> a time of great transition and the tts functions (without Jovie) are
> >> quite inadequate for the partially sighted (for example, from macular
> >> degeneration which is fairly common). Thanks, Gustav.
> >>
> >> On 10/22/21 1:56 AM, Jeremy Whiting wrote:
> >> > Hello all,
> >> >
> >> > I've been quietly watching this conversation for a bit but need to
> >> > chime in here. I'm the one that changed the name from ktts to Jovie
> >> > many years ago. Then deprecated Jovie itself when QtSpeech came about.
> >> > I'm very curious about what use cases there still are for Jovie.
> >> > Shortly before the name change from ktts to Jovie it was drastically
> >> > changed to just be a gui on top of Speech-Dispatcher. QtSpeech as a
> >> > library does the same thing but has no gui, is only useful from
> >> > applications. My question is what do you use Jovie for exactly? Here
> >> > are the ways replacements using QtSpeech "Just Work" in my mind.
> >> >
> >> > Want to hear notifications from any KDE application like Jovie/ktts
> >> > did? Turn that on in the application's notifications configuration. It
> >> > uses QtSpeech to speak the notification, title, message or both. Just
> >> > like it did previously with ktts/jovie.
> >> > Want to read a document out loud? Use Okular's QtSpeech actions in
> >> > it's menu. It sends either the selected text or the current page to be
> >> > spoken to Speech-Dispatcher directly for listening to the document.
> >> > Want to read out loud a web article of some kind? Use Firefox's tts
> >> > features to read it out to you. It doesn't use QtSpeech, but interacts
> >> > with speech-dispatcher directly if I recall correctly.
> >> > Want to type some text and hear it spoken? This can be done in a
> >> > number of ways. 1. spd-say command line tool. 2. espeak or espeak-ng
> >> > or festival, or pico or any other tts directly from command line. 3.
> >> > Use KMouth if you prefer to have a gui. KMouth uses speech-dispatcher
> >> > directly if I recall correctly and provides a nice gui with a
> >> > customizable dictionary of commonly used words, etc.
> >> >
> >> > With the above, what is the use of Jovie anymore? If there's a use
> >> > case that isn't covered by the above we can certainly revive Jovie and
> >> > fill the gap if there is one, but in my mind the above uses are
> >> > already covered.
> >> >
> >> > thanks,
> >> > Jeremy Whiting
> >> >
> >> > On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com
> >> > <mailto:jdashiel at panix.com>> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >     Quite agree with you on that score.?  A new version of redcore
> >> >     Linux is
> >> >     available for download and it has a very current kernel and its
> >> >     default
> >> >     desktop is kde plasma.?  Maybe one thing jovie might do when
> >> >     started up is
> >> >     to locate something like espeak-ng or espeak or speech-dispatcher
> >> and
> >> >     start those up first then come up on its own.?  If it finds
> >> >     speech-dispatcher maybe remind the user to run spd-conf to get
> >> >     speech-dispatcher configured correctly but could generate a default
> >> >     spd.conf file and let the user know that it's there and maybe
> >> >     reconfigure
> >> >     if problems arise.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >     On Thu, 21 Oct 2021, Gustav Degreef wrote:
> >> >
> >> >     > Festival was not much of an improvement in voice quality.?
> >> >     Embrola, as you
> >> >     > say, was too difficult to configure.?  I'll check out Fenrir,
> >> >     and tdsr but the
> >> >     > voice quality is TOTALLY secondary - a smoothly working
> >> >     jovie/espeak (or
> >> >     > equivalent) is quite adequate to get things done.?  Which in
> >> >     theend is really
> >> >     > the important thing. Gustav
> >> >     >
> >> >     > On 10/21/21 1:56 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >> >     > > fenrir and tdsr are a couple more to check out and mbrola and
> >> >     festival can
> >> >     > > maybe help the human speech situation though not easily
> >> >     configured.
> >> >     > >
> >> >     > >
> >> >     > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021, Gustav Degreef wrote:
> >> >     > >
> >> >     > >> Actually, Jovie replaced ktts quite some years ago.??
> >> >     Qtspeech is supposed
> >> >     > >> to
> >> >     > >> be a partial replacement, but there is no frontend program to
> >> >     manage the
> >> >     > >> output of speechdispatcher (like Jovie). ?? e-speak works
> >> >     fine for me, but
> >> >     > >> bothers everyne else who listens to my computer outptut (my
> >> >     partner and
> >> >     > >> friends).??  e-speak is clear enough, just does not sound
> >> >     like a person.??
> >> >     > >> Good,
> >> >     > >> I'll look into espeak-ng, thanks! Gustav
> >> >     > >>
> >> >     > >> On 10/21/21 11:04 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
> >> >     > >>> I had read somewhere ktts was supposed to have replaced
> >> >     jovie.?  Also,
> >> >     > >>> espeak-ng is a successor to espeak.?  It's good you got any
> >> >     of this
> >> >     > >>> working.
> >> >     > >>>
> >> >     > >>>
> >> >     > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct
> >> >     2021 04:36:27
> >> >     > >>> From: Gustav Degreef <gustav97 at gmail.com
> >> >     <mailto:gustav97 at gmail.com>> To: Simion
> >> >     > >>> <simion314 at gmail.com <mailto:simion314 at gmail.com>>,
> >> >     kde-accessibility at kde.org <mailto:kde-accessibility at kde.org>
> >> >     Subject: Re: Is there a
> >> >     > >>> project that is jovie successor?
> >> >     > >>>
> >> >     > >>> Hi Simion,
> >> >     > >>>
> >> >     > >>> Thanks for your input and effort.??? ???  I carefuly looked
> >> >     over everything
> >> >     > >>> you
> >> >     > >>> mentioned, including the script but it has taken me a long
> >> >     time.??? ???  I
> >> >     > >>> only
> >> >     > >>> have a
> >> >     > >>> rudimentary????  knowledge of scripts.??? ??? ???  So
> >> >     modifying or writing
> >> >     > >>> scripts
> >> >     > >>> is beyond
> >> >     > >>> my current possibility, especially with my vision
> >> >     problems.??? ???  But it
> >> >     > >>> really
> >> >     > >>> helped me to look everything over.??? ???  I decided the
> >> >     best way was to go
> >> >     > >>> back
> >> >     > >>> to
> >> >     > >>> trying to install it from the opensuse repos.??? ???  I had
> >> >     failed the first
> >> >     > >>> time and
> >> >     > >>> created a great confusion in my setup. But it was a spare
> >> >     "test" setup on
> >> >     > >>> a
> >> >     > >>> separate partition.??? ???  I spent a lot of time cleaning
> >> >     up the repos,
> >> >     > >>> updating and
> >> >     > >>> cleaning up. And now Jovie works on opensuse 15.3!??? ???
> >> >     The packages come
> >> >     > >>> from
> >> >     > >>> unofficial repos, but someone else with the tech knowhow has
> >> >     put it
> >> >     > >>> together.??? ?
> >> >     > >>> I am "forced" to upgrade soon, since the opensuse 15.2 EOL
> >> >     is soon.??? ???
> >> >     > >>> But
> >> >     > >>> now I
> >> >     > >>> can move forward hopefully for another 1.5 years, the life
> >> >     of 15.3 until a
> >> >     > >>> better solution comes.??? ???  I hope you or someone else
> >> >     can help come up
> >> >     > >>> with
> >> >     > >>> a
> >> >     > >>> replacement for Jovie.??? ???  Thanks for your
> >> >     efforts.??? ???  Gustav.
> >> >     > >>> p.s. I'm posting back on the list in case it may help
> >> >     someone else.
> >> >     > >>>
> >> >     > >>> On 9/13/21 1:13 AM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
> >> >     > >>>> On 8/30/21 7:15 PM, Simion wrote:
> >> >     > >>>>> Hi Gustav,
> >> >     > >>>>> I personally would try to compile it, if I am unable I
> >> >     would try first a
> >> >     > >>>>> simple bash script, the issue with next script is that is
> >> not
> >> >     > >>>>> queuing???????????  the tasks so you can get 2 speakers at
> >> >     the same time
> >> >     > >>>>> or
> >> >     > >>>>> you
> >> >     > >>>>> can edit the script to "killall" previous taks (so an
> >> >     application that
> >> >     > >>>>> runs
> >> >     > >>>>> in background would be needed to improve the experience)
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> #! /bin/bash
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> xclip -out -selection primary | xclip -in -selection
> >> clipboard
> >> >     > >>>>> xsel --clipboard | tr "\n" " " | espeak
> >> >     > >>>>> #end script
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> or maybe python or nodejs
> >> >     > >>>>> I am tempted to write something to do some cleanup on the
> >> >     input,
> >> >     > >>>>> like when I want to read an entire reddit page of omments
> >> >     would be nice
> >> >     > >>>>> if
> >> >     > >>>>> I
> >> >     > >>>>> could???????????  clean it up???????????  first and remove
> >> >     all the
> >> >     > >>>>> "reply/report
> >> >     > >>>>> ..." buttons labels
> >> >     > >>>>> The reason I decided that in future I would use espeak is
> >> >     because in my
> >> >     > >>>>> current configuration jovie uses speech dispatcher and
> >> >     speech dispatcher
> >> >     > >>>>> uses
> >> >     > >>>>> espeak , Qt5 is a new extra layer so a new placed that
> >> >     could cause
> >> >     > >>>>> problems
> >> >     > >>>>> (but yes Qt5 would be nice to have if you plant to write a
> >> >     cross
> >> >     > >>>>> operating
> >> >     > >>>>> system desktop application).
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> I have no plans to upgrade from my system
> >> >     soon,???????????  maybe when I
> >> >     > >>>>> will
> >> >     > >>>>> upgrade my computer or I am forced to upgrade.
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> You probably need to install and configure espeak, the
> >> >     language and
> >> >     > >>>>> speed,
> >> >     > >>>>> you can have a key bind to???????????  run the script, you
> >> >     can modify the
> >> >     > >>>>> script
> >> >     > >>>>> to???????????  add something like "killall espeak" to stop
> >> >     the previous
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> Sorry I can't help more.
> >> >     > >>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> Regards, Simion
> >> >     > >>>> Hi Simion,
> >> >     > >>>>
> >> >     > >>>> Thanks for taking the time and for your effort.
> >> >     > >>>>
> >> >     > >>>>
> >> >     > >>>>> On 8/28/21 11:42 PM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
> >> >     > >>>>>> Hi Simion,
> >> >     > >>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>> Thanks for your detailed reply.???????????  I use
> >> >     opensuse leap 15.2
> >> >     > >>>>>> with
> >> >     > >>>>>> KDE
> >> >     > >>>>>> plasma 5.18.6, Qt 5.12.7. ???????????  Jovie continues to
> >> >     work fine even
> >> >     > >>>>>> though
> >> >     > >>>>>> it has been deprecated.???????????  However, it no longer
> >> >     works on
> >> >     > >>>>>> opensuse
> >> >     > >>>>>> 15.3 and 15.2 end of life is in December this year.
> >> >     Someone has built
> >> >     > >>>>>> packages for Jovie on the Open Build Service of Suse, but
> >> >     I could not
> >> >     > >>>>>> get
> >> >     > >>>>>> it
> >> >     > >>>>>> to install properly, I think it's due to the Qt changes,
> >> >     I got a
> >> >     > >>>>>> dependency
> >> >     > >>>>>> mess.
> >> >     > >>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>> I have been trying to find a replacement for Jovie for 3
> >> >     years at
> >> >     > >>>>>> least,
> >> >     > >>>>>> since it was clear it would no longer be
> >> >     maintained.???????????  Read
> >> >     > >>>>>> Aloud
> >> >     > >>>>>> is
> >> >     > >>>>>> a plugin for Firefox that fills all the browser needs.
> >> >     Thunderbird also
> >> >     > >>>>>> has
> >> >     > >>>>>> a Read Aloud plugin, but it only works for single emails
> >> >     and top posted
> >> >     > >>>>>> replies, list messages, etc.???????????  It reads only
> >> >     from top to
> >> >     > >>>>>> bottom
> >> >     > >>>>>> without being able to select only parts of the
> >> >     mail.??????????
> >> >     > >>>>>> LibreOffice
> >> >     > >>>>>> has a text to speech plugin that even reads the clipboard
> >> >     contents, but
> >> >     > >>>>>> it
> >> >     > >>>>>> is cumbersome.??????????? Okular has a nice TTS function,
> >> >     but it often
> >> >     > >>>>>> starts
> >> >     > >>>>>> two different simultaneous but voices of the same text
> >> >     which can't be
> >> >     > >>>>>> understood.??????????? Sometimes id functions
> >> >     fine.???????????  That is
> >> >     > >>>>>> where I
> >> >     > >>>>>> use TTS the most, and periodically to read out error
> >> >     messages, text
> >> >     > >>>>>> boxes
> >> >     > >>>>>> etc (for which Jovie is indispensable and for which I
> >> >     don't have an
> >> >     > >>>>>> adequate
> >> >     > >>>>>> substitute).
> >> >     > >>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>> Any suggestions???????????? Perhaps to compile Jovie from
> >> >     a tar
> >> >     > >>>>>> binary????????????  Or are you seriously thinking of
> >> >     building a
> >> >     > >>>>>> replacement
> >> >     > >>>>>> for
> >> >     > >>>>>> Jovie? Thanks, Gustav.
> >> >     > >>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>> On 8/26/21 12:01 PM, Simion wrote:
> >> >     > >>>>>>> Hi, no problem ,
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> btw my name is Simion no Simon, don't worry it is OK
> >> >     just want to
> >> >     > >>>>>>> mention
> >> >     > >>>>>>> it to prevent issues like typos in emails
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> I still use Jovie, from my fork with a few crash fixes
> >> >     > >>>>>>> I have some scripts that I use directly espeak .
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> I was not yet forced to give up on Jovie but my
> >> >     conclussion was to not
> >> >     > >>>>>>> use
> >> >     > >>>>>>> Qt if I have to write my own replacement,
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> since I would not need some crossplatform solution I
> >> >     could probably
> >> >     > >>>>>>> make
> >> >     > >>>>>>> a
> >> >     > >>>>>>> python application , or even something that runs in the
> >> >     > >>>>>>> browser??????????????????????????????????????????????
> >> >     or nodejs.
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> But for now on my distro I can still compile jovie , I
> >> >     have a keyboard
> >> >     > >>>>>>> with
> >> >     > >>>>>>> multipmedia keys so my workflow is to copy paste stuff
> >> >     in clipboard
> >> >     > >>>>>>> and
> >> >     > >>>>>>> using my keys I can play/pause/resume. I still use
> >> >     espeak as backend
> >> >     > >>>>>>> with
> >> >     > >>>>>>> voice speed set to max.
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>> On 8/26/21 12:37 PM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> Hello Simon,
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> I saw your old message on the accessibility
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> list.??????????????????????????????????????????????  I
> >> >     also have
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> serious
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> eye
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> problems, though I am not
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> blind.??????????????????????????????????????????????  I
> >> >     have been
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> using
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> Jovie
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> for most of my computer time for years and I am trying
> >> >     to find a
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> replacement for
> >> >     it.??????????????????????????????????????????????  In
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> my
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> situation a screen reader is not
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> suitable.???????????????????????????????????????????
> >> >     Excuse me for
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> writing
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> you
> >> >     directly.??????????????????????????????????????????????  Can I ask
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> you
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> more about this
> >> >     issue??????????????????????????????????????????????
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> Gustav
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>>> On 5/12/18 10:18 AM, Simion wrote:
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> Hello, So I know that jovie is not be ported to KDE5
> >> >     and that the
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> idea
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> is
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> to use QtSpeech, I can't find if someone started a
> >> >     replacement for
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> jovie
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> that uses QtSpeech yet.
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> I plan to investigate QtSpeech and see if it works
> >> >     properly on
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> Linux,
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> if
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>> there is no such a project started is there any
> >> >     interest in it?
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>>>>>>>>
> >> >     > >>
> >> >     > >>
> >> >     >
> >> >     >
> >> >     >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
>