Is there a project that is jovie successor? (fwd)

Gustav Degreef gustav97 at gmail.com
Fri Oct 22 11:49:55 BST 2021


Thank you Jeremy for the opportunity to address this directly.

In my opinion, Jovie/jovie placement is indispensable for those of us 
who are partially sighted (not blind).  In my opinion, a screen reader 
(very useful for the blind) actually gets in the way for people like me. 
   Jovie does a very simple and straightforward task - it reads the most 
recent content of the clipboard.  Jovie allows for selecting text (and 
reading it out) in virtually all of the major applications/tasks (and 
virtually all others) that a primarily desktop user needs for every day 
use.  Those functions/tasks where  jovie/replacement is needed are:

1) Text edit/read - in my case (imc) Kate
2) e-mail client - imc thunderbird
3) browser - imc Firefox
4) pdf reader - imc Okular
5) word processor - imc LibreOffice
6) text from "program to user output" (error messages, text boxes, 
command line output, etc).
7) miscellaneous programs not so often used.

In my experience/opinion:
Kmouth is cumbersome and unwieldy and requires too many steps.
using the command line adds several steps that disturb the flow of work, 
it is not simple to have to switch windows and then have to type a command.

Indispensable (for partially sighted) aspects of Jovie or Jovie replacement:

1) SIMPLE interface with as few clicks or steps or commands to get 
speech output. - ideal use is with mouse or keyboard shortcut. Currently 
jovie takes three simple steps with mouse or keyboard shortcut - text 
select, text copy,  then start/etc. speech output.
2) being able to select all or ONLY part of a piece of text - with the 
mouse or shortcut.
3) Easily start/stop and pause/resume speech output with mouse or shortcut.
4) Sits in system tray or functions from menu that appears on right 
click of mouse (or keyboard shortcut).


There are currently add ons to programs that COULD fulfill most of these 
requirements,  however they do not all work well:

1) ) Kate - no plugin, no built in function for tts.
2) Thunderbird - Read Aloud plugin: very limited, it reads the ENTIRE 
message with some headers. Does not allow for selecting a portion of the 
text, can't stop, can't pause/resume.  Totally inadequate for a bottom 
posted list message.
3) Firefox - Read Aloud plugin:  works quite well, has all needed functions.
4) Okular - nice built in tts function, easy to select text, right click 
mouse to output speech.  However it outputs (at least on opensuse) two 
simultaneous speech streams (of the same text) with different voices and 
it is impossible to understand.
5) LibreOffice - has a tts plugin but it is cumbersome and adds several 
steps.  It has a nice feature to output the contents of the clipboard 
but it requires too many steps.
6) program to user output - kmouth or command line seem the only 
alternative to Jovie
7) miscellaneous programs (with no plugins or built in tts)  - same as 6)

It seems clear that a lot of developers are aware/are working on tts for 
various programs, and that is very encouraging and great. However, it is 
a time of great transition and the tts functions (without Jovie) are 
quite inadequate for the partially sighted (for example, from macular 
degeneration which is fairly common). Thanks, Gustav.

On 10/22/21 1:56 AM, Jeremy Whiting wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I've been quietly watching this conversation for a bit but need to 
> chime in here. I'm the one that changed the name from ktts to Jovie 
> many years ago. Then deprecated Jovie itself when QtSpeech came about. 
> I'm very curious about what use cases there still are for Jovie. 
> Shortly before the name change from ktts to Jovie it was drastically 
> changed to just be a gui on top of Speech-Dispatcher. QtSpeech as a 
> library does the same thing but has no gui, is only useful from 
> applications. My question is what do you use Jovie for exactly? Here 
> are the ways replacements using QtSpeech "Just Work" in my mind.
>
> Want to hear notifications from any KDE application like Jovie/ktts 
> did? Turn that on in the application's notifications configuration. It 
> uses QtSpeech to speak the notification, title, message or both. Just 
> like it did previously with ktts/jovie.
> Want to read a document out loud? Use Okular's QtSpeech actions in 
> it's menu. It sends either the selected text or the current page to be 
> spoken to Speech-Dispatcher directly for listening to the document.
> Want to read out loud a web article of some kind? Use Firefox's tts 
> features to read it out to you. It doesn't use QtSpeech, but interacts 
> with speech-dispatcher directly if I recall correctly.
> Want to type some text and hear it spoken? This can be done in a 
> number of ways. 1. spd-say command line tool. 2. espeak or espeak-ng 
> or festival, or pico or any other tts directly from command line. 3. 
> Use KMouth if you prefer to have a gui. KMouth uses speech-dispatcher 
> directly if I recall correctly and provides a nice gui with a 
> customizable dictionary of commonly used words, etc.
>
> With the above, what is the use of Jovie anymore? If there's a use 
> case that isn't covered by the above we can certainly revive Jovie and 
> fill the gap if there is one, but in my mind the above uses are 
> already covered.
>
> thanks,
> Jeremy Whiting
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 4:15 PM Jude DaShiell <jdashiel at panix.com 
> <mailto:jdashiel at panix.com>> wrote:
>
>     Quite agree with you on that score.  A new version of redcore
>     Linux is
>     available for download and it has a very current kernel and its
>     default
>     desktop is kde plasma.  Maybe one thing jovie might do when
>     started up is
>     to locate something like espeak-ng or espeak or speech-dispatcher and
>     start those up first then come up on its own.  If it finds
>     speech-dispatcher maybe remind the user to run spd-conf to get
>     speech-dispatcher configured correctly but could generate a default
>     spd.conf file and let the user know that it's there and maybe
>     reconfigure
>     if problems arise.
>
>
>     On Thu, 21 Oct 2021, Gustav Degreef wrote:
>
>     > Festival was not much of an improvement in voice quality. 
>     Embrola, as you
>     > say, was too difficult to configure.  I'll check out Fenrir,
>     and tdsr but the
>     > voice quality is TOTALLY secondary - a smoothly working
>     jovie/espeak (or
>     > equivalent) is quite adequate to get things done.  Which in
>     theend is really
>     > the important thing. Gustav
>     >
>     > On 10/21/21 1:56 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>     > > fenrir and tdsr are a couple more to check out and mbrola and
>     festival can
>     > > maybe help the human speech situation though not easily
>     configured.
>     > >
>     > >
>     > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2021, Gustav Degreef wrote:
>     > >
>     > >> Actually, Jovie replaced ktts quite some years ago.? 
>     Qtspeech is supposed
>     > >> to
>     > >> be a partial replacement, but there is no frontend program to
>     manage the
>     > >> output of speechdispatcher (like Jovie). ? e-speak works
>     fine for me, but
>     > >> bothers everyne else who listens to my computer outptut (my
>     partner and
>     > >> friends).?  e-speak is clear enough, just does not sound
>     like a person.?Â
>     > >> Good,
>     > >> I'll look into espeak-ng, thanks! Gustav
>     > >>
>     > >> On 10/21/21 11:04 AM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
>     > >>> I had read somewhere ktts was supposed to have replaced
>     jovie.  Also,
>     > >>> espeak-ng is a successor to espeak.  It's good you got any
>     of this
>     > >>> working.
>     > >>>
>     > >>>
>     > >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct
>     2021 04:36:27
>     > >>> From: Gustav Degreef <gustav97 at gmail.com
>     <mailto:gustav97 at gmail.com>> To: Simion
>     > >>> <simion314 at gmail.com <mailto:simion314 at gmail.com>>,
>     kde-accessibility at kde.org <mailto:kde-accessibility at kde.org>
>     Subject: Re: Is there a
>     > >>> project that is jovie successor?
>     > >>>
>     > >>> Hi Simion,
>     > >>>
>     > >>> Thanks for your input and effort.?? ??  I carefuly looked
>     over everything
>     > >>> you
>     > >>> mentioned, including the script but it has taken me a long
>     time.?? ??  I
>     > >>> only
>     > >>> have a
>     > >>> rudimentary???  knowledge of scripts.?? ?? ??  So
>     modifying or writing
>     > >>> scripts
>     > >>> is beyond
>     > >>> my current possibility, especially with my vision
>     problems.?? ??  But it
>     > >>> really
>     > >>> helped me to look everything over.?? ??  I decided the
>     best way was to go
>     > >>> back
>     > >>> to
>     > >>> trying to install it from the opensuse repos.?? ??  I had
>     failed the first
>     > >>> time and
>     > >>> created a great confusion in my setup. But it was a spare
>     "test" setup on
>     > >>> a
>     > >>> separate partition.?? ??  I spent a lot of time cleaning
>     up the repos,
>     > >>> updating and
>     > >>> cleaning up. And now Jovie works on opensuse 15.3!?? ?? 
>     The packages come
>     > >>> from
>     > >>> unofficial repos, but someone else with the tech knowhow has
>     put it
>     > >>> together.?? ?
>     > >>> I am "forced" to upgrade soon, since the opensuse 15.2 EOL
>     is soon.?? ??Â
>     > >>> But
>     > >>> now I
>     > >>> can move forward hopefully for another 1.5 years, the life
>     of 15.3 until a
>     > >>> better solution comes.?? ??  I hope you or someone else
>     can help come up
>     > >>> with
>     > >>> a
>     > >>> replacement for Jovie.?? ??  Thanks for your
>     efforts.?? ??  Gustav.
>     > >>> p.s. I'm posting back on the list in case it may help
>     someone else.
>     > >>>
>     > >>> On 9/13/21 1:13 AM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
>     > >>>> On 8/30/21 7:15 PM, Simion wrote:
>     > >>>>> Hi Gustav,
>     > >>>>> I personally would try to compile it, if I am unable I
>     would try first a
>     > >>>>> simple bash script, the issue with next script is that is not
>     > >>>>> queuing??????????  the tasks so you can get 2 speakers at
>     the same time
>     > >>>>> or
>     > >>>>> you
>     > >>>>> can edit the script to "killall" previous taks (so an
>     application that
>     > >>>>> runs
>     > >>>>> in background would be needed to improve the experience)
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> #! /bin/bash
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> xclip -out -selection primary | xclip -in -selection clipboard
>     > >>>>> xsel --clipboard | tr "\n" " " | espeak
>     > >>>>> #end script
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> or maybe python or nodejs
>     > >>>>> I am tempted to write something to do some cleanup on the
>     input,
>     > >>>>> like when I want to read an entire reddit page of omments
>     would be nice
>     > >>>>> if
>     > >>>>> I
>     > >>>>> could??????????  clean it up??????????  first and remove
>     all the
>     > >>>>> "reply/report
>     > >>>>> ..." buttons labels
>     > >>>>> The reason I decided that in future I would use espeak is
>     because in my
>     > >>>>> current configuration jovie uses speech dispatcher and
>     speech dispatcher
>     > >>>>> uses
>     > >>>>> espeak , Qt5 is a new extra layer so a new placed that
>     could cause
>     > >>>>> problems
>     > >>>>> (but yes Qt5 would be nice to have if you plant to write a
>     cross
>     > >>>>> operating
>     > >>>>> system desktop application).
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> I have no plans to upgrade from my system
>     soon,??????????  maybe when I
>     > >>>>> will
>     > >>>>> upgrade my computer or I am forced to upgrade.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> You probably need to install and configure espeak, the
>     language and
>     > >>>>> speed,
>     > >>>>> you can have a key bind to??????????  run the script, you
>     can modify the
>     > >>>>> script
>     > >>>>> to??????????  add something like "killall espeak" to stop
>     the previous
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> Sorry I can't help more.
>     > >>>>>
>     > >>>>> Regards, Simion
>     > >>>> Hi Simion,
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>> Thanks for taking the time and for your effort.
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>>
>     > >>>>> On 8/28/21 11:42 PM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
>     > >>>>>> Hi Simion,
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Thanks for your detailed reply.??????????  I use
>     opensuse leap 15.2
>     > >>>>>> with
>     > >>>>>> KDE
>     > >>>>>> plasma 5.18.6, Qt 5.12.7. ??????????  Jovie continues to
>     work fine even
>     > >>>>>> though
>     > >>>>>> it has been deprecated.??????????  However, it no longer
>     works on
>     > >>>>>> opensuse
>     > >>>>>> 15.3 and 15.2 end of life is in December this year.
>     Someone has built
>     > >>>>>> packages for Jovie on the Open Build Service of Suse, but
>     I could not
>     > >>>>>> get
>     > >>>>>> it
>     > >>>>>> to install properly, I think it's due to the Qt changes,
>     I got a
>     > >>>>>> dependency
>     > >>>>>> mess.
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> I have been trying to find a replacement for Jovie for 3
>     years at
>     > >>>>>> least,
>     > >>>>>> since it was clear it would no longer be
>     maintained.??????????  Read
>     > >>>>>> Aloud
>     > >>>>>> is
>     > >>>>>> a plugin for Firefox that fills all the browser needs.
>     Thunderbird also
>     > >>>>>> has
>     > >>>>>> a Read Aloud plugin, but it only works for single emails
>     and top posted
>     > >>>>>> replies, list messages, etc.??????????  It reads only
>     from top to
>     > >>>>>> bottom
>     > >>>>>> without being able to select only parts of the
>     mail.??????????
>     > >>>>>> LibreOffice
>     > >>>>>> has a text to speech plugin that even reads the clipboard
>     contents, but
>     > >>>>>> it
>     > >>>>>> is cumbersome.?????????? Okular has a nice TTS function,
>     but it often
>     > >>>>>> starts
>     > >>>>>> two different simultaneous but voices of the same text
>     which can't be
>     > >>>>>> understood.?????????? Sometimes id functions
>     fine.??????????  That is
>     > >>>>>> where I
>     > >>>>>> use TTS the most, and periodically to read out error
>     messages, text
>     > >>>>>> boxes
>     > >>>>>> etc (for which Jovie is indispensable and for which I
>     don't have an
>     > >>>>>> adequate
>     > >>>>>> substitute).
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> Any suggestions??????????? Perhaps to compile Jovie from
>     a tar
>     > >>>>>> binary???????????  Or are you seriously thinking of
>     building a
>     > >>>>>> replacement
>     > >>>>>> for
>     > >>>>>> Jovie? Thanks, Gustav.
>     > >>>>>>
>     > >>>>>> On 8/26/21 12:01 PM, Simion wrote:
>     > >>>>>>> Hi, no problem ,
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> btw my name is Simion no Simon, don't worry it is OK
>     just want to
>     > >>>>>>> mention
>     > >>>>>>> it to prevent issues like typos in emails
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> I still use Jovie, from my fork with a few crash fixes
>     > >>>>>>> I have some scripts that I use directly espeak .
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> I was not yet forced to give up on Jovie but my
>     conclussion was to not
>     > >>>>>>> use
>     > >>>>>>> Qt if I have to write my own replacement,
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> since I would not need some crossplatform solution I
>     could probably
>     > >>>>>>> make
>     > >>>>>>> a
>     > >>>>>>> python application , or even something that runs in the
>     > >>>>>>> browser????????????????????????????????????????????? 
>     or nodejs.
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> But for now on my distro I can still compile jovie , I
>     have a keyboard
>     > >>>>>>> with
>     > >>>>>>> multipmedia keys so my workflow is to copy paste stuff
>     in clipboard
>     > >>>>>>> and
>     > >>>>>>> using my keys I can play/pause/resume. I still use
>     espeak as backend
>     > >>>>>>> with
>     > >>>>>>> voice speed set to max.
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>> On 8/26/21 12:37 PM, Gustav Degreef wrote:
>     > >>>>>>>> Hello Simon,
>     > >>>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>>> I saw your old message on the accessibility
>     > >>>>>>>> list.?????????????????????????????????????????????  I
>     also have
>     > >>>>>>>> serious
>     > >>>>>>>> eye
>     > >>>>>>>> problems, though I am not
>     > >>>>>>>> blind.?????????????????????????????????????????????  I
>     have been
>     > >>>>>>>> using
>     > >>>>>>>> Jovie
>     > >>>>>>>> for most of my computer time for years and I am trying
>     to find a
>     > >>>>>>>> replacement for
>     it.?????????????????????????????????????????????  In
>     > >>>>>>>> my
>     > >>>>>>>> situation a screen reader is not
>     > >>>>>>>> suitable.???????????????????????????????????????????
>     Excuse me for
>     > >>>>>>>> writing
>     > >>>>>>>> you
>     directly.?????????????????????????????????????????????  Can I ask
>     > >>>>>>>> you
>     > >>>>>>>> more about this
>     issue??????????????????????????????????????????????
>     > >>>>>>>> Gustav
>     > >>>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>>> On 5/12/18 10:18 AM, Simion wrote:
>     > >>>>>>>>> Hello, So I know that jovie is not be ported to KDE5
>     and that the
>     > >>>>>>>>> idea
>     > >>>>>>>>> is
>     > >>>>>>>>> to use QtSpeech, I can't find if someone started a
>     replacement for
>     > >>>>>>>>> jovie
>     > >>>>>>>>> that uses QtSpeech yet.
>     > >>>>>>>>> I plan to investigate QtSpeech and see if it works
>     properly on
>     > >>>>>>>>> Linux,
>     > >>>>>>>>> if
>     > >>>>>>>>> there is no such a project started is there any
>     interest in it?
>     > >>>>>>>>>
>     > >>>>>>>>>
>     > >>
>     > >>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>



More information about the kde-accessibility mailing list