KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions

Rob Whyte fudge at thefudge.net
Mon Oct 15 09:06:04 BST 2018 

Is there an image for bleeding edge or a wiki article on where to get
everything from git and  any particular order?

Don't ask for much I know loL.


thanks


Warm regards Rob Whyte JAWS certified 2018
On 15/10/18 08:47, chrys wrote:
> Howdy List,
>
> related to my mail
>> - desktop icons
>>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again) 
> i just found the following:
> https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/
>> Keyboard navigation once again works properly on the desktop
>> <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399566> (Eike Hein, KDE Plasma
>> 5.14.1)
>
> it seems that the keyboard navigation on desktop is fixed again in KDE
> Plasma 5.14.1.
> that already wipes something from the list of todos 8-). Thanks Eike! ;).
>
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 14.10.18 um 21:41 schrieb chrys:
>> Howdy Federik, Howdy List,
>>
>>> Just use phabricator directly,
>> ok i will do so.
>>
>>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did
>>> attempt
>>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
>>> progress
>>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>> That would be cool :). its very needed.
>> I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling
>> that orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.
>>
>> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95
>>
>>
>>
>>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost
>>> works, but for
>>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that
>>> will be
>>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be
>>> a bit
>>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build
>>> and work,
>>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>> agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do some
>> basic tests on KDE 5.14.
>> Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
>> - Kicker
>>     1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch
>> between panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_ panel
>> (blind people dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so the
>> keyboard need to respect them as well)
>>     2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and
>> "Miniprograms" don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner
>> task and example we want to do)
>>     3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it is
>> the default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
>>     4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard navigable
>> - desktop icons
>>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>>     2. Give them an a11y label
>> - task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic
>> component to use an desktop)
>>     1. make it able to speak
>>
>> because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it. if
>> those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and even
>> maybe more developers in that area). I would pin the list above (what
>> is not already there) down to phabricator if you are fine with.
>>
>> more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and access
>> to individual plasmoids should follow.
>> For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
>> Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how to
>> get all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid
>> switcher" where you can focus any element on your desktop via an
>> hierarchic menu (maybe with some additional information).
>> like this:
>> pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers on
>> the desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you get all
>> "child" plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the container):
>> [search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
>> [Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace switcher,
>> Tray -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top Panel)
>> [Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %), Network(WIFI:
>> <SSID> signal 50%)}
>> [Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00
>> AM)..... }(what ever is o desktop)
>>
>> pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even useful
>> for non handicapped power uses users.
>>
>>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to
>>> get Orca
>>> working in general, that would be great!
>> i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how (lol)
>> and will write it down there.
>> special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an
>> shortcut by default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it
>> means starting the screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).
>>
>> cheers chrys
>>
>> Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>
>>> It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very
>>> happy :)
>>>
>>> On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
>>>> Howdy Frederik,
>>>>
>>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>> Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
>>>>
>>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the
>>>>> plasma
>>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>> so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/
>>>> needs
>>>> for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or
>>>> should
>>>> i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to
>>>> another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to
>>>> myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
>>> Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking
>>> purposes and to
>>> have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard
>>> stuff we
>>> want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it
>>> can be
>>> quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway.
>>>
>>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain
>>>>> how on
>>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try
>>>>> to do
>>>>> it.
>>>> ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as
>>>> soon i
>>>> can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
>>>> as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as
>>>> IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical
>>>> "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
>>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did
>>> attempt
>>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good
>>> progress
>>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>>>
>>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost
>>> works, but for
>>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that
>>> will be
>>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be
>>> a bit
>>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build
>>> and work,
>>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>>>
>>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some
>>>>> progress
>>>>> reports.
>>>> ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team"
>>>> blog?
>>>> maybe others wants to blog there as well?
>>>> maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction
>>>> how to
>>>> make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at
>>>> mailing list).
>>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to
>>> get Orca
>>> working in general, that would be great!
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>>> cheers chrys
>>>>
>>>> Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>>>> Hi Chrys and everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant
>>>>> and try
>>>>> to
>>>>> answer inline below.
>>>>>
>>>>> On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST chrys at linux-a11y.org wrote:
>>>>>> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma:
>>>>>> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets,
>>>>>> tray
>>>>>> whatever)
>>>>> This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make
>>>>> improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
>>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the
>>>>> plasma
>>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles
>>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain
>>>>> how on
>>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try
>>>>> to do
>>>>> it.>
>>>>>> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes
>>>>> That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I
>>>>> think
>>>>> this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps
>>>>> how to
>>>>> reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca,
>>>>> let's
>>>>> see.>
>>>>>> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure
>>>>>> orca deas
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas  QT scrips are not as
>>>>>> good tested
>>>>>> as its GTK script)
>>>>> These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate
>>>>> backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?)
>>>>>> weitten
>>>>>> in qml.
>>>>>> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :).
>>>>>> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help
>>>>>> others too:
>>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html
>>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html
>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte
>>>>>>
>>>>>> d
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I currently play with that.
>>>>> Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the
>>>>> docs.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for
>>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used
>>>>>>> for code
>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like  missing a11y
>>>>>> labels or
>>>>>> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create
>>>>>> todos or
>>>>>> send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
>>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same credentials should work for phabricator:
>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope all of that is accessible!
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see
>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/
>>>>>> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner
>>>>>> in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more
>>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>>> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE 
>>>>>> a11y
>>>>>> blogging section or category ?
>>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some
>>>>> progress
>>>>> reports.
>>>>>
>>>>>> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for
>>>>>> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be
>>>>>> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side
>>>>>> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to
>>>>>> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people
>>>>>> dont
>>>>>> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still „nothing works
>>>>>> there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great work
>>>>>> already happend at this sector already.
>>>>> Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues,
>>>>> people
>>>>> are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's
>>>>> assume good
>>>>> faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making
>>>>> things more
>>>>> accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers, greez from germany
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chrys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <gladhorn at kde.org>:
>>>>>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll answer your mail inline, below.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST chrys at linux-a11y.org
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Howdy list,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m
>>>>>>>> new to
>>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>>> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/
>>>>>> Plasma.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i
>>>>>>>> wont
>>>>>>>> miss it now (lol).
>>>>>>>> I use KWins zoom plugin.
>>>>>>> Great to hear that the zooming works :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same
>>>>>>>> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of
>>>>>>>> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop
>>>>>>>> (search in
>>>>>>>> menu and those stuff).
>>>>>>>> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca.
>>>>>>>> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate.
>>>>>>>> But it
>>>>>>>> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the
>>>>>>>> at-spi
>>>>>>>> (cool).
>>>>>>>> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/
>>>>>>>> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day.
>>>>>>>> So i read
>>>>>>>> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility
>>>>>>>> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :).
>>>>>>> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really
>>>>>>> exciting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> read. I hope we can quickly improve things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for
>>>>>>>> KDE). Thats
>>>>>>>> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to
>>>>>>>> Mentor
>>>>>>>> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation
>>>>>>>> and fun
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :). on my way to get touched with that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So:
>>>>>>>> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort?
>>>>>>> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I
>>>>>> cannot do
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> this alone (neither time nor energy wise).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first
>>>>>> steps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was
>>>>>>> generally busy
>>>>>>> lately.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join?
>>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for
>>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used
>>>>>>> for code
>>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see
>>>>>>> what is
>>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the
>>>>>>> things
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more
>>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers chrys
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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