KDE/ QT/ Plasma accessibility contributions

chrys chrys at linux-a11y.org
Sun Oct 14 22:47:48 BST 2018 

Howdy List,

related to my mail
> - desktop icons
>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again) 
i just found the following:
https://pointieststick.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/this-week-in-usability-productivity-part-40/
> Keyboard navigation once again works properly on the desktop 
> <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=399566> (Eike Hein, KDE Plasma 
> 5.14.1)

it seems that the keyboard navigation on desktop is fixed again in KDE 
Plasma 5.14.1.
that already wipes something from the list of todos 8-). Thanks Eike! ;).

cheers chrys

Am 14.10.18 um 21:41 schrieb chrys:
> Howdy Federik, Howdy List,
>
>> Just use phabricator directly,
> ok i will do so.
>
>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did 
>> attempt
>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good 
>> progress
>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
> That would be cool :). its very needed.
> I think the gnome world is doing some magic special style handling 
> that orca seems to translate this into ATK_STATE_SELECTED state.
>
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gnome-shell/commit/7d44c666ff59c437d1e3b7111dc51460f5e33c95 
>
>
>
>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, 
>> but for
>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a 
>> bit
>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build 
>> and work,
>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
> agree. sadly this was a busy weekend. so i was just able to do some 
> basic tests on KDE 5.14.
> Overall I think its good to prio the following elements:
> - Kicker
>     1. application overview: better navigation tab should switch 
> between panels, arrowing should go to next element in _current_ panel 
> (blind people dont see the visual barriers on the screen, so the 
> keyboard need to respect them as well)
>     2. application overview: "apps and documentation" and 
> "Miniprograms" don't have an label (maybe this is a good beginner task 
> and example we want to do)
>     3. application starter: does not work with orca here (since it is 
> the default mode, it would be good if it is accessible))
>     4. application starter: make "bookmark" section keyboard navigable
> - desktop icons
>     1. Make them keyboard navigateable (again)
>     2. Give them an a11y label
> - task switcher (even if it is more complicated - its an basic 
> component to use an desktop)
>     1. make it able to speak
>
> because those components are the most basic for desktop to use it. if 
> those are working out well. more users will follow to test (and even 
> maybe more developers in that area). I would pin the list above (what 
> is not already there) down to phabricator if you are fine with.
>
> more "advanced" stuff like tray area, workspace switcher and access to 
> individual plasmoids should follow.
> For access to plasmodis i have an cool idea:
> Is there an way to focus an plasmoid via an API? I read about how to 
> get all running plasmoids. maybe i can bake out an "plasmoid switcher" 
> where you can focus any element on your desktop via an hierarchic menu 
> (maybe with some additional information).
> like this:
> pressing an shortcut opens an menu (what represents the containers on 
> the desktop) and an search box. if you open an menu entry you get all 
> "child" plasmoids. so plasmoids what are embedded int the container):
> [search] (type ahead search for plasmoids)
> [Bottom Panel] -> submenu{kicker, window switcher,workspace switcher, 
> Tray -> {TrayIcon1, TrayIcon2}} (whatever is on Top Panel)
> [Top Panel] -> submenu{Clock(12:00 AM), Volume(60 %), Network(WIFI: 
> <SSID> signal 50%)}
> [Desktop] -> submenu{Weather(Cloudy, 12 degrees), Clock(12:00 AM)..... 
> }(what ever is o desktop)
>
> pressing enter will focus the selected element. maybe its even useful 
> for non handicapped power uses users.
>
>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get 
>> Orca
>> working in general, that would be great!
> i can do this. i will register a blog as soon as i figured how (lol) 
> and will write it down there.
> special for KDE users is very useful to know that there is an shortcut 
> by default to start it ( in fact very awsome!, because it means 
> starting the screenreader is just one keyboard stroke away).
>
> cheers chrys
>
> Am 14.10.18 um 10:26 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>> Hi Chrys,
>>
>> It's awesome to have you on board, reading your mail makes me very 
>> happy :)
>>
>> On fredag 12. oktober 2018 16:06:10 CEST chrys wrote:
>>> Howdy Frederik,
>>>
>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>> Yes, strike! :) worked for me. I registered and can login now.
>>>
>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the 
>>>> plasma
>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>> so should i do a more detailed list of keyboard navigation flaws/ needs
>>> for some basic stuff?should i sent all that stuff to the list? or 
>>> should
>>> i write it directly to the phabricator project? what brings me to
>>> another question: am i allowed to comment/ assign stuff (of course to
>>> myself) on phabricator? So keep it a little up to date?
>> Just use phabricator directly, it's much better for tracking purposes 
>> and to
>> have discussions on individual points. Especially with the keyboard 
>> stuff we
>> want to let the plasma developers solve some of the issues since it 
>> can be
>> quite tricky and they know the code and should review changes anyway.
>>
>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain 
>>>> how on
>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try 
>>>> to do
>>>> it.
>>> ah, thats even a awsome idea! I will search for those an label as 
>>> soon i
>>> can turn on my home computer (i m currently still at work).
>>> as i remember the window switcher/ workspace switcher doesn't talk as
>>> IMO important parts of the desktop (but i also asume its not a typical
>>> "missing lable" bug and will require a little more, not sure).
>> Getting KWin and the window switcher to work was something we did 
>> attempt
>> before, it's tricky, even though I think David Edmundsen made good 
>> progress
>> with this in the past. I hope he can update us on the state.
>>
>> I think it would be best for you to find something that almost works, 
>> but for
>> example misses some label, just to get started on something that will be
>> rewarding. Getting the workflow, with reviews and everything can be a 
>> bit
>> intimidating initially. It can also be hard to get things to build 
>> and work,
>> depending on which part we look at. So let's try to start easy.
>>
>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
>>>> reports.
>>> ok so i will register a blog there? maybe something like an "team" 
>>> blog?
>>> maybe others wants to blog there as well?
>>> maybe first thing we should blog should some initial instruction how to
>>> make orca run on KDE (requirements, shortcuts, what you already did at
>>> mailing list).
>> Yes, that seems to be a common problem, if we can document how to get 
>> Orca
>> working in general, that would be great!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Frederik
>>
>>> cheers chrys
>>>
>>> Am 11.10.18 um 16:53 schrieb Frederik Gladhorn:
>>>> Hi Chrys and everyone,
>>>>
>>>> I cut out parts of the mail to focus on what I think is relevant 
>>>> and try
>>>> to
>>>> answer inline below.
>>>>
>>>> On onsdag 10. oktober 2018 23.27.38 CEST chrys at linux-a11y.org wrote:
>>>>> For me the major issues i see in QT/Plasma:
>>>>> 1. bad keyboard navigation (ho to focus panel, embedded widgets, tray
>>>>> whatever)
>>>> This is something where the Plasma folks have been very helpful, I 
>>>> think
>>>> once we talk to them now, they will be even more receptive to make
>>>> improvements since this comes from users and not just me :)
>>>> I think we need to write this up a bit more and then write to the 
>>>> plasma
>>>> mailing list as a first step.
>>>>
>>>>> 2. a lot of missing a11y names, labels roles
>>>> These should be easy to fix nowadays, maybe we can try to explain 
>>>> how on
>>>> the mailing list. If you have one concrete example, then let's try 
>>>> to do
>>>> it.>
>>>>> 3. a11y Performance can be very bad here sometimes
>>>> That will be harder to fix, but it's something I can look into, I 
>>>> think
>>>> this requires filing issues on bugs.kde.org to track, with steps 
>>>> how to
>>>> reproduce things. Some things may also be easiest to fix in Orca, 
>>>> let's
>>>> see.>
>>>>> 4. it also crashes a lot with screenreader enabled ( for sure orca 
>>>>> deas
>>>>> not
>>>>> hanle everything here gracefully, orcas  QT scrips are not as good 
>>>>> tested
>>>>> as its GTK script)
>>>> These I'm interested in, especially if you somehow manage to generate
>>>> backtraces, so that the issues can be fixed in Qt and or KDE.
>>>>
>>>>> 5. my nasty ezoom issues lol
>>>>>
>>>>> I already read some stuff and found the widgets are mostly (all?) 
>>>>> weitten
>>>>> in qml.
>>>>> i understood that quite good because no black magic here :).
>>>>> Some useful links to me i want to share because they may help 
>>>>> others too:
>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-accessible.html
>>>>> http://doc.qt.io/qt-5/qml-qtquick-keynavigation.html
>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Plasma5/QML2/GettingStarte 
>>>>>
>>>>> d
>>>>>
>>>>> I currently play with that.
>>>> Awesome! Please let me know when things are unclear, I can update the
>>>> docs.
>>>>
>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for 
>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used 
>>>>>> for code
>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>> Yea i already found that and see some stuff like  missing a11y 
>>>>> labels or
>>>>> keyboard nav here and there. So fits with my observations.
>>>>>
>>>>> But i see no way to register at this website to comment, create 
>>>>> todos or
>>>>> send patches? How is the wotkflow here?
>>>> You need a general KDE account that works for everything.
>>>> https://identity.kde.org/index.php?r=registration/index
>>>> is where you should be able to sign up.
>>>>
>>>> The same credentials should work for phabricator:
>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/auth/start/?next=%2F
>>>>
>>>> I hope all of that is accessible!
>>>>
>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see 
>>>>>> what is
>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the 
>>>>>> things
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>> Yea. will do that. I wanted to take a look in kickers favorite/
>>>>> bookmark keyboard nav first. Sounds not so complex as i m a beginner
>>>>> in QT/ QML / Plasma world.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more 
>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>> Thats an realy cool idea! Is there already something like a KDE  a11y
>>>>> blogging section or category ?
>>>> Not that I know of. It's pretty easy to get a blog registered for
>>>> planet.kde.org, I think many people would be happy about some progress
>>>> reports.
>>>>
>>>>> It should indeed find more publicity in fact most huge issues for
>>>>> blind guys are a oneliner by an good dev :/. So much issues can be
>>>>> wiped out when devs know how to care about that. With the nice side
>>>>> effect that automated testing works as well :). Even users need to
>>>>> know that the situation improves. Thats why many impaired people dont
>>>>> use or even try KDE. Because in there brain is still „nothing works
>>>>> there for me“ and this is just wrong i think. A lot of great work
>>>>> already happend at this sector already.
>>>> Yes, we just need a bit more mind-share and pointing out the issues,
>>>> people
>>>> are very willing to help but often just a bit clueless. Let's 
>>>> assume good
>>>> faith, I haven't met anyone in KDE who was opposed to making things 
>>>> more
>>>> accessible.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Frederik
>>>>
>>>>> Cheers, greez from germany
>>>>>
>>>>> Chrys
>>>>>
>>>>> Zitat von Frederik Gladhorn <gladhorn at kde.org>:
>>>>>> Hi Chrys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll answer your mail inline, below.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On torsdag 23. august 2018 10.16.15 CEST chrys at linux-a11y.org wrote:
>>>>>>> Howdy list,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is chrys. I m a visual impaired guy from germany. I m 
>>>>>>> new to
>>>>>>> this list.
>>>>>>> Since Gnome gets more and more crippled i decide to change to KDE/
>>>>> Plasma.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> And it was one of best decisions I did. Plasma is awsome and i wont
>>>>>>> miss it now (lol).
>>>>>>> I use KWins zoom plugin.
>>>>>> Great to hear that the zooming works :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My girlfrind is blind. She currently switched to Mate for the same
>>>>>>> reason like me. Mate is pretty accessible. But there are a lot of
>>>>>>> stuff missing what we would suspect from an modern desktop 
>>>>>>> (search in
>>>>>>> menu and those stuff).
>>>>>>> Plasma has all that. So i decide to try plasma using Orca.
>>>>>>> My results: Its very slow, unstable and often hard to navigate. 
>>>>>>> But it
>>>>>>> worked at all! thats more that i was suspecting. What tells me that
>>>>>>> the plasma shell already exposes the needed information to the 
>>>>>>> at-spi
>>>>>>> (cool).
>>>>>>> Impressed by that results, I want start fixing up stuff for KDE/
>>>>>>> Plasma/ QT a11y to make work for her (and ohters) one day.
>>>>>>> So i read
>>>>>>> https://community.kde.org/Get_Involved#Accessibility
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> https://techbase.kde.org/Development/Tutorials/Accessibility
>>>>>>> what brings me to the point to say hello here in the list :).
>>>>>> Wow, amazing! That means our efforts did pay off. This is really
>>>>>> exciting
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>>>>> read. I hope we can quickly improve things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sadly information is very rare in a11y stuff (not only for KDE). 
>>>>>>> Thats
>>>>>>> why i want to find others who maybe already have knowledge to 
>>>>>>> Mentor
>>>>>>> me or wants to work together with me to raise the motivation and 
>>>>>>> fun
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :). on my way to get touched with that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So:
>>>>>>> 1. Is there someone out there who wants to join my effort?
>>>>>> Yes, I've been trying to get things working for a long while, but I
>>>>> cannot do
>>>>>
>>>>>> this alone (neither time nor energy wise).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Is there someone out there who can Mentor me a bit for my first
>>>>> steps?
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm happy to do that, sorry for the late reaction, I was 
>>>>>> generally busy
>>>>>> lately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. Is there an effort what already exists what i can maybe join?
>>>>>> I think there are some tasks on phabricator which KDE uses for 
>>>>>> planning.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/ is the general website, also used 
>>>>>> for code
>>>>>> review.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is a project for Plasma Accessibility:
>>>>>> https://phabricator.kde.org/project/view/249/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the first thing would be to go through the list and see 
>>>>>> what is
>>>>>> current, which tasks need fixing and then of course add all the 
>>>>>> things
>>>>> that
>>>>>
>>>>>> don't work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ideally we also manage to blog about this to get some more 
>>>>>> attention :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Frederik
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers chrys
>>
>>
>>
>

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