[Kde-accessibility] [MA ODF Accessibility Team] Report from a11y meeting 29 Nov

[Peter Korn]

Hi guys,

Gary - thanks for the summary.  I've a much longer posting to do, but no time 
for it at the moment.  But a few quick things:

  1. Nobody from Microsoft was there that I saw.  They were invited, but
     didn't show.

  2. Jerry Berrier didn't make it - he was supposed to be on a panel discussion
     at the end of the day, but was sick (which was why it was just John
     Chappel at the end, instead of him and two other panelists).

  3. I need multiple OKs before I can do anything with the audio recording,
     but I hope to get them all...


Regards,

Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.

Gary Cramblitt wrote:
> Mark Bucciarelli and I attended a meeting 29 Nov in Boston, Massachusetts.  
> The meeting was sponsored by the Disabilities Law Center (DLC), Massachusetts 
> Office on Disability (MOD), and the Disability Policy Consortium.
> 
> The following description is mostly mine with input from Mark.  It is taken 
> from memory and the few notes we made.  Nothing in this report should be 
> taken as fact, completely accurate, or official policy.  It is our 
> interpretation of what was said.  Where Mark and I differ in interpretation 
> or viewpoint, I've so indicated.
> 
> It was not a large meeting.  About 30 people I'd say.  Some of the people 
> present had no idea what Gnome or KDE are.
> 
> The title of the meeting was "What is Open Source?", but from what Mark and I  
> could  tell, the real purpose of the meeting was:
> 
>   1.  To smooth the ruffled feathers of the disabled community in 
> Massachusetts and give them a chance to be the focus.
> 
>   2.  To inform the various groups in MA that represent users with 
> disabilities as to what the MA Open Document Format (ODF) decision means.
> 
>   3.  To describe the current state of accessibility (a11y) in applications, 
> desktops, and operating systems that support ODF and PDF.
> 
>   4.  To describe the process that will be used to implement the decision with 
> respect to a11y.
> 
>   5.  Identify the issues that need to be solved in order to fully support 
> users with disabilities in MA using ODF and PDF.
> 
> The formal speakers were:
> 
> Peter Korn of Sun.
> 
> Aaron Leventhal of IBM.
> 
> Peter Quinn, CIO of MA Information Technology Division (ITD).
> 
> Greg Pisocky of Adobe Systems.
> 
> John Chappel of the Massachusetts  Rehabilitation Commission (MRC).
> 
> Leon Shiman of Shiman Associates, member of the X.org Board of Directors.  
> Leon is our main contact and the reason we were able to attend.
> 
> I (Gary) also spoke *very* briefly, representing KDE e.V.
> 
> We haven't seen a full attendees list, but some names we did get were:
> 
> Christine ("Chris") Griffin, Disabilities Law Center (convened the meeting)
> 
> Bill Allan, Head of Disability Policy Consortium, not a state organization, 
> rather a lobby/advocate for the disabled.  25% of his board requires 
> accessibility technology to use computers.  Bill has spoken out against the 
> ODF decision.
> 
> Jerry Berrier, President of the Bay State Council for the Blind.  He has 
> spoken out against the ODF decision before.
> 
> Alan Yates, Product Manager at Microsoft.
> 
> Myra Berloff, Massachusetts Office of Disabilities (MOD), ADA Coordinator for 
> the State (Americans with Disabilities Act--big Federal Law).  She is 
> working on Memorandum of Understanding between the various MA agencies as to 
> how a11y will be addressed.
> 
> Barbara Lyberger, an attorney for the Massachusetts Office on Disability.
> 
> Paul Snayd, IBM.
> 
> Cynthai Ice, IBM.
> 
> I won't report everything that was covered in detail (I couldn't do that even 
> if I wanted to).  Peter Korn recorded audio of the meeting and once he has 
> received an OK from everyone who spoke, intends to put it on the web.  At the 
> very least, he intends to publish his part of the meeting, and by far, he had 
> the longest part.  Let me try to summarize what was covered briefly.
> 
> 1.  Peter Korn gave two talks.  The first talk was about standards in general, 
> open standards, how open standards relate to open source (most people confuse 
> the two), and how all these relate to accessibility, accessibility standards, 
> and ODF.
> 
> 2.  Peter Korn gave a second talk on Open Source Accessibility & Open Office 
> Accessibility.  Peter described how the Microsoft Active 
> Accessibility API (MSAA) has stifled progress in a11y on the Windows 
> platform.  For instance, the MSAA is not a robust enough API for assistive 
> screen readers to get at the contents of documents.  It also doesn't permit 
> scripting of applications via the API.  Most of the "success" in Microsoft 
> Office has been through the "heroic" efforts of AT vendors such as Freedom 
> Scientific (makers of JAWS) and Ai Squared (makers of ZoomText) who have had 
> to reverse engineer the MS Office applications in order to achieve the 
> admittedly excellent support they have.  He pointed out this is limited to MS 
> Office applications, not the entire Windows desktop.  He pointed out that 
> these implementations often require specialized hardware drivers that don't 
> support all hardware.  He pointed out that the AT vendors are going to have 
> to do this all over again with MS Office 12, that upgrades will be expensive 
> for the MA government and for users, and that significant retraining will be 
> needed.  He described this as the "bolt-on" approach.  Then he described the 
> a11y infrastructure approach, where a11y is built into the system from the 
> ground up.  (Though he didn't say it, he's talking about AT-SPI.)  He 
> described how such a robust infrastructure benefits all applications running 
> on the system, and provides opportunities to enhance a11y that simply are not 
> possible with the bolt-on approach.  Peter then gave a demonstration under 
> Gnome of Gnopernicus screen reader, Gnome On-screen Keyboard (GOK), and 
> Dasher.  Peter mentioned that a scripting screen reader named Orca will be out 
> in beta sometime in April or May.
> 
> 3.  Aaron Leventhal described the current state of a11y in Mozilla and 
> Firefox.  Firefox 1.5, which was released the same day, has significant a11y 
> enhancements.  There are many technical issues to deal with however.  In 
> particular, how should browsers deal with pages when part of the page has 
> dynamically changed (timed javascript and flash for example)? Firefox has 
> incorporated accessibility in their project by having a team that reviews all 
> commits to ensure they comply with accessibility issues.  This is now a 
> project policy.  Not a lot of rules but they stick to them.  (Could KDE 
> develop similar rules and script them?)
> 
> 4.  Peter Quinn directly addressed the disabled community.  Some points:
> 
> - categorically will move the date if the chosen ODF product(s) cannot give at 
> least the current level of a11y functionality.
> 
> - is very reticent to change the date because there is a lot of industry 
> attention and focus now (IBM + Sun together) and it is wise to keep the  
> pressure up.
> 
> - spoke about the Microsoft application to ECMA to have their XML schema 
> ratified as an open standard: 9 - 18 months, then they have to go through 
> international standards body.   Basically a no-go if he can stick to  the 
> 1/2007 date.
> 
> 5.  Greg Pisocky described the PDF/A standard and the enhancements for a11y in 
> both Adobe Writer and Reader.  He gave a demonstration of OpenOffice.org 
> running under JAWS (which currently works but with lots of fixable problems), 
> had oo.org write out a PDF/A file and speak it in Reader.  Since Adobe Reader 
> has its own TTS capability, the point of this demonstration was that ODF 
> supports a11y and since oo.org exports to PDF, it can create highly 
> accessible documents (at least as far as PDF goes).  The PDF "TouchUp 
> ReadOrder Tool" looked really nice.  Issues it dealt with:
> 
>     - Logical Read Order (for example, in a doc with two columns, don't 
>       read across from one column to the other, like Jaws does now in 
>       OOo).
> 
>     - Alt text for graphics
> 
>     - Logical tab order (for forms)
> 
>     - Short field descriptions (for forms)
> 
>     - Tags on figures and tables
> 
> Mark felt Greg's demonstration was very impressive.  His was the only demo 
> that showed JAWS and Mark was impressed with its capabilities.  It was amazing 
> to watch and see how a blind person must interact with a computer.  As 
> someone who had not seen that before, Mark appreciated that he could use it 
> and showed how it worked.  I thought it was less so because it showed the 
> current problems between oo.org and JAWS (airing dirty laundry).
> 
> 6.  I was only allowed to speak for about 2 minutes, in which I stated that 
> Mark and I were volunteer developers representing the e.V., that KDE is 
> committed to accessibility and desires to cooperate with accessibility groups 
> and users in MA and elsewhere to improve a11y in KDE and KOffice, that KDE is 
> an alternative graphical desktop, that KDE includes a suite of office 
> applications called KOffice, that the suite includes word processor, 
> spreadsheet, presentation, project planning, database and graphical 
> applications, that KOffice reads and writes ODF, that KDE and Gnome are 
> cooperating and not competing, that KDE 4 will share the very same a11y 
> infrastructure as Gnome, and that this means the AT tools in Gnome will work 
> with KDE apps and vice versa.
> 
> 7.  John Chappel spoke briefly about the CRM's plans.  The CRM, together with 
> the MOD, are preparing a set of a11y software standards.  The standards will 
> be published on the web with a public comment period.  The CRM and MOD are 
> also looking at what a11y training requirements will be needed as a result of 
> the ODF decision.
> 
> 
> Some important points that were raised in questions and discussion:
> 
> 1.  ODF software not only needs good user documentation and training, but that 
> documentation and training itself must be accessible.  Something to keep in 
> mind is that most of the trainers are themselves disabled.
> 
> 2.  MA doesn't have a good sense of exactly what a11y functionality is 
> currently being used within the MA government and therefore would be a 
> priority when migrating to new software.  There are certain features, for 
> instance, that are available in JAWS and ZoomText, but are these features 
> actually being used?  A survey to collect that information is underway.
> 
> 3.  Should Adobe Writer, oo.org, and KOffice "nag" document authors to put 
> a11y information in the document?  From an a11y standpoint, yes, they must.  
> From a usability standpoint, such a feature would just be turned off and 
> ignored  by most users, even if were the default.  At the very least, the 
> capability should be in the software, and it should be possible for admins to 
> force it on.
> 
> 4.  Disabled government employees are concerned that a) they are going to need 
> extensive training in using the new software (one blind person stated that he 
> required 6 months of training with MS Office and JAWS), b) if a variety of 
> software is used within the MA government, their ability to move jobs from 
> one agency to another would be impaired, c) since most disabled people in MA 
> use Windows, their ability to get a MA government job will similarly be 
> impaired, d) the current state of a11y in ODF software is horrible and just 
> won't do, and e) promises are being made to fix this, but they don't have 
> confidence those promises will be fulfilled.
> 
> 5.  Because of #4, not only should MA have a standard document format, but it 
> should have a standard application user interface as well, so that users with 
> disabilities who are forced to change applications do not have to learn a 
> completely new interface.
> 
> 6.  A blind person's desktop will be the same as a sighted persons.  No 
> reduced capability.
> 
> 
> The following are my (Gary's) personal observations and thoughts.
> 
> Peter Korn did a fantastic job at explaining how the bolt-on approach impedes 
> a11y progress (and is expensive), and that the AT-SPI approach offers many 
> opportunities to not only meet the current level of a11y under Windows, but 
> to exceed it.  He barely mentioned KDE or KOffice, but I still thought the 
> talk was an excellent one.  If you can listen to his presentation (I'll post a 
> link when he puts it up), I urge you to listen.  Despite his efforts, the 
> message just didn't seem to get through to the people with disabilities in 
> the room.  They kept saying (not in these words exactly, but in essence), "we 
> don't want to have to change".  They are happy with what they have and view 
> the ITD decision as a) forcing them to accept a level of a11y that is much 
> less than what they currently have, and b) raising huge roadblocks to job 
> mobility and availability for disabled persons.  Despite Peter and others 
> mentioning several times that Office 12 will force change on them whether 
> they like it or not, they keep saying "don't make us change."  We need to 
> keep hammering home the message that they are going to have to accept change 
> and that non-choice is coming from Microsoft.  We also need to address the 
> training issue in a big way.
> 
> IMHO, the demonstrations were very impressive and should have 
> "sold" the users with disabilities on the possibilities for the future that 
> AT-SPI creates.  Alas, that didn't seem to happen.  Mark thought Peter's talks 
> were too technical, too long, pushed UNIX too much, and not appropriate for 
> the audience.  Given the questions that followed, Mark may be correct.
> 
> I was also disturbed by #4, #5 and #6 above.  In essence, this is the pro- 
> "software monoculture" argument.  If everybody in the world uses the same 
> software and it never changes, then users with disabilities are much better 
> off.  It was particularly distressing to me to hear these comments coming 
> from the MOD and MRC people, who will be writing the software a11y standards.  
> When pressed, most backed down somewhat to restrict the requirement to "all 
> ODF software should have common functionality and a common keyboard 
> interface, i.e., the same shortcuts across all ODF applications."  This 
> "requirement" could have a profound impact on whether KDE and KOffice are 
> ever used in MA.  Think about the frame-based interface in KWord for instance 
> and how this differs from the style-based interface in oowriter.  If the 
> software monoculture requirement wins the day, in essense it means KDE must 
> *be* Windows.  argh!
> 
> OTOH, we must not dismiss the very real and valid concerns about job mobility 
> for disabled users.  I think we can address this in two ways.
> 
> 1.  MA and the open source community (us) need to develop a robust strategy 
> for a11y training.  We should develop an "accessibility kit" that agencies, 
> governments, schools, universities, etc can easily obtain to help them 
> implement training.  Obviously, a11y training cannot be fully automated, but 
> we can provide most of the electronic materials that would be needed.
> 
> 2.  We need to keep hammering home the message that a) software keeps 
> changing, particularly when only one vendor is controlling it, and b) the 
> a11y infrastructure approach offers opportunities to extend functionality 
> beyond what is currently implemented, and therefore, offers positive change, 
> not negative change.
> 
> In addition, Peter Korn pointed out that if MA develops a11y training in a 
> variety of applications and platforms, it will open up job opportunities to 
> people with disabilities that they might not otherwise have had.  Jobs in 
> UNIX system administration and website/services creation, for instance.
> 
> IMHO, this "software monoculture" argument could be the greatest obstacle to 
> adoption of ODF and open source software in MA, second only to the dirty 
> politics.
> 
> 
> In a separate private conversation, Leon asked us for the following 
> information.  He needs specific information, not generalizations.  I'd like 
> whoever can supply the information, in as detailed and comprehensive manner 
> as you can manage, to send it to Leon (leon at magic dot shiman dot com).  He 
> needs this info by 25 Dec 2005.
> 
> 1.  What capabilities are needed in X.org in order to implement a11y in KDE?  
> (I know almost nothing about X.org, but I think this means composite and 
> transparency?)  What specific problems exist and are they fixable by Jan 
> 2007?  Leon is on the board of X.org, so he can help to make things happen.
> 
> 2.  What platforms does KOffice run under?  Sun/Solaris?  BSD?  All Linux 
> distros?  If not, which ones?
> 
> 3.  What are the issues and problems with D-BUS that need to be solved before 
> KDE and AT-SPI can migrate to it?  He has heard that D-BUS is "not ready for 
> primetime" and would like to know details.
> 
> 4.  What are the current issues and limitations of the Gnome ATK and AT-SPI 
> with respect to KDE that would have to be solved?
> 
> In addition, Leon wants to perform usability testing of KOffice.  He wants us 
> to supply him with the "best" version of KOffice we can manage to put 
> together and also provide someone who can "hand hold" while they do the 
> testing.  That person would not have to be physically present, but they must 
> be reachable by phone or email and knowledgeable.  He wants to do this 
> testing very soon (around end of year).  This is also an opportunity for 
> KOffice to get some valuable and detailed testing results.
> 
> He also wants to perform accessibility testing of KOffice.  I'm trying to talk 
> him out of this one, since I've already written a detailed accessibility 
> report myself.
>