[dot] Interview: Xandros and KDE

[Dot Stories]

URL: http://dot.kde.org/1083922704/

From: Fabrice Mous <fabrice at kde.nl>
Dept: we-want-cool-desktops
Date: Friday 07/May/2004, @11:38

Interview: Xandros and KDE
==========================

   The Xandros Desktop OS
[http://www.xandros.com/products/home/desktopdlx/dsk_dlx_screenshots.html]
is known for their intuitive graphical environment that works right out
of the box. Their polished desktop product is based on KDE
[http://www.kde.org/]. Your humble Dot [http://dot.kde.org/] editor had
the privilege to talk to Rick Berenstein, Xandros Chairman and CTO and
Ming Poon,Vice President for Software Development about Xandros and
their products and the relationship between  Xandros
[http://www.xandros.com/] and the KDE project. Without further due ...
enjoy the interview!
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     Please introduce yourself.

     Rick Berenstein, Xandros Chairman and CTO and Ming Poon,Vice 
President for Software Development

     How did Xandros start? What's its history?

     Rick Berenstein: Linux Global Partners, a NYC investment group,
originally planned to invest in Linux companies  which were developing
applications or technologies that we felt would be essential pieces of a
viable  alternative to Microsoft Windows. We planned eventually to do a
joint venture with one of the existing  Linux distros and, in fact,
started just such talks with Corel. But along the way Corel decided to
divest  itself of its Linux Business Division and we took it over, along
with most of the development staff, and  named the new company Xandros.

     The Xandros Desktop OS is based on the Corel LINUX 2 release. This
was a Debian based distribution. Which current version of the Debian
release cycle are you using with Xandros Desktop Version 2?

     Ming Poon: We are now based on what is commonly known as Debian
Sarge, which will form the basis of the  next official Debian release.

     Xandros acquired Corel's Linux OS in 2001. What part does the Corel
heritage play in the creation of the Xandros Desktop? Are there any
technologies you retain by that acquisition? Will there be a comeback of
Corel WordPerfect [http://www.wordperfect.com/] or CorelDraw
[http://www.coreldraw.com/] for Linux?

     Ming Poon: We have pretty well retained all the original key
architects and software engineers from the Corel's  Linux teams. All the
technologies have been carried over and improved upon. New ones have
also been created.  We carried over what we think what are the best
parts of the Corel culture and heritage where there is no  politics in
our R&D office and we always see things in the customer's viewpoint
whether it is software design  or any policies that relate to the
customers. We have hired many new staff and applied the same cultural 
elements to them. We respect each other and we just have fun everyday in
creating the best desktop product  out there.

     Rick Berenstein: We hope that Corel will make a comeback for
WordPerfect Office for  Linux as well as CorelDraw. And if they do you
can be sure that Xandros will offer them to our users.

     What role does KDE play for Xandros?

     Ming Poon: KDE continues to play a big role in Xandros. Just as 
Corel LINUX, KDE forms the basis of our desktop environment. We enhance
and fixes bugs in KDE and  add in our own KDE/Qt applications to
complement KDE to fit our targeted mass desktop market where  all the
users are somewhat familiar with Windows only. Some of the standard KDE
configurations and apps  just don't fit into that market very well so we
have to either to replace them totally or make lots of  changes to them.
All of our changes are available from our FTP site in source code form.
We also put  relevant bug fixes back into KDE.

     What were your reasons for choosing KDE over other available
desktops?

     Ming Poon: When we first started our Linux desktop effort back in
1997, we actually implemented a  100% pure Java solution called Cabot
which was running on the StrongARM processor on a little NC  (Network
Computer) called the NetWinder. It had pretty well all the key
functionalities of KDE or  any other desktop environment including toys
like an Internet news ticker in the task bar. It is  probably something
more close to a true Java desktop than what Sun's Java Desktop is today.
It was  really 100% Java.

     At the time, the JVM in Linux was based on green threads and the
performance was not as good as the  JVM in Windows. Combined with
running on a relatively slower 200 MHz StrongARM processor with no  math
co-processor, it was just not as slick as running our Java desktop under
the JVM in Windows or  as any native Linux desktop implementation. We
had to make some tough choices in mid 1998 to drop  the Java
implementation and switch to something native. KDE was the pretty well
the only good choice  at the time since it had most of the desktop
environment features we were looking for.

     When we started the Corel LINUX project back in March of 1999,
GNOME/GTK was there so we actually reviewed  both GNOME and KDE to make
sure we used the right desktop environment to start. We had a very short
and  aggressive cycle and the simplicity of KDE/Qt won again. Looking
back, we never regretted about not  supporting GNOME at all. Most of us
came from OS/2 PM or Windows GUI development or freshly from a new 
object oriented technology called Java back then. MFC was a big life
saver when it came out in Windows in  developing GUI apps. Java was even
better where everything was simple and made perfect sense. There was  no
way any of us would like to go back in time and program in something
(GNOME/GTK) that was even more  awkward than programming in pre-MFC days
where we had to deal with the Win32 C API only. KDE/Qt was just  like
Java where everything (well most of the time anyway) made sense.

     We have also seen a lot of poor arguments made on Qt where it cost
money if you want to develop a commercial  closed source application.
Usually people argued that the $500 per developer license fee was just
as much  as a developer's salary in some third world countries. That may
be true but they don't really take into  account the months of headaches
and development time they will save by using Qt every year. That alone 
is probably worth the $500. KDE/Qt is simple and is designed for the
desktop. We like it and we have no  regrets in supporting KDE at all.

     What do you like most about KDE?

     Ming Poon: The thing I like most about KDE has always been its
simplicity in design and the really  passionate developers that have
been supporting it for years.

     Rick Berenstein: I think that the KDE developers are not only
dedicated  but continue to work on terrific new features and new
capabilites within the framework of a wide KDE  community. We are
looking forward to implementing many of these changes in the Xandros
suite of  products.

     What do you like least about KDE?

     Ming Poon: I can not think of anything big really. Perhaps the
Control Center could use an overhaul some day.  It is a bit awkward to
use from time to time because you have to save the settings before going
to the next  panel. It would really be great if the CD Player supported
playback by digital ripping as the default. Most  new systems,
especially laptops, don't ship with the cable connecting the CD-ROM
drive to the sound card any  more so it is an obvious area to address in
the desktop market.

     Could you tell us somewhat more about the work that Xandros has
done to integrate KDE in their products? Has this been a difficult
process?

      Xandros desktop, creating a shortcut ...

     Ming Poon: We actually do quite a big surgery on KDE in every
release. We changed things from how the File  Open dialog looks and work
across network environments to replacing the standard KDE file manager 
(Konqueror) completely. Most people think that Xandros File Manager
(XFM) is a highly tweaked version  of Konqueror. The truth is that it is
not Konqueror at all. XFM was started in the KDE 1.x days before 
Konqueror even existed. Konqueror is great and is well suited for people
coming from a UNIX environment.  For where our product is going, we need
a simple, easy to use and yet powerful file manager that is catered 
more towards the people coming from a Windows environment. I believe we
have achieved this objective  quite well. In the new XFM that ships with
Xandros Desktop V2, it even has an integrated CD Writer applet  that is
even simpler to use and yet more powerful than the one that comes with
XP. Our users just love it.

     There are many other things we modify that really touch on every
component of KDE from the low level  to the look and feel. We have done
this kind of surgery for so many years now that we can do it while  we
are almost asleep.

     Does Xandros make any effort to get these merged upstream.  If not,
why not?

     Ming Poon: We try our best. The relevant bug fixes always get in
unless KDE is in code freeze mode which  it was in our last release
cycle. For a lot of other stuff especially the ones that have to do with
the  UI, those are really tough calls. Some KDE people don't like our
changes and we can't live with the  existing look and feel in our
product direction so we just leave the source code out there for people 
to use or to merge if they ever decide to. That's what a GPL open source
project is all about. You can  make whatever changes to it as long as
you make the changes available in source code form.

     How does Xandros support the KDE community?

     Ming Poon: We do sponsor some of the developers traveling to
conferences to talk and promote KDE. We  always promote KDE in every
tradeshow we are in and in any business meetings we have had with all 
the big software or hardware vendors out there. Some of the existing KDE
features also came from  our contributions in the past.

      Shortcut Wizard

     It seems that the KDE project is perhaps more of a meritocracy than
other projects. How does Xandros perceive the KDE project and how does
this reflect in accepting patches from Xandros?

     Rick Berenstein: We also see the KDE project as more of a
meritocracy and we feel that this shows in the  level of programming
that comes out of the KDE community.

     What do you think of the [http://dot.kde.org/1073599985/] latest
[http://dot.kde.org/1073668213/] efforts
[http://dot.kde.org/1073557624/] to integrate several technologies into
the KDE desktop to make non-KDE applications feel more comfortable on
the KDE desktop?
 [screenshot 1 [http://ktown.kde.org/~danimo/bmp_kde_diropen_dlg.png]]
[screenshot 2]
[http://openoffice-et.sourceforge.net/pildid/OOo-1.1/ooo-plastik/ooo-plastik1.png]

     Rick Berenstein: I think this is really one of the best things that
has  happened for the desktop end user.

     What kind of users is Xandros targetting?

     Rick Berenstein: We originally started by addressing the needs of
the most dependent user, the home user.  The reception this got in the
press ("It just works." "The King of the Linux Desktop") convinced us 
that our philosophy, based as Ming mentioned above on our belief that
most of our users would be  coming from a Windows environment,was
correct. Our new products, the Business Desktop,the Xandros  Desktop
Management Server, and our upcoming server line will address the
enterprise customer as  well as the larger scale customer needs in
government and education.

      Xandros File Manager

     In the Xandros Desktop OS there is an application called "Xandros
File Manager"[XFM]. This application is regarded by many as a killer
feature. Can you tell us a bit more about it and the technologies it
support?

     Ming Poon: For a detailed discussion you can view this article 
here
[http://consultingtimes.com/articles/xandros/filemanager/filemanager.html].
 In V2, there is also a built-in CD Writer plugin application where you
can just drag and drop files  to burn to CD-R or CD-RW media.
Alternatively, you can also create data and music CD projects to back 
up your data, create your favorite music CDs or burn your MP3 CDs. It is
just a few mouse clicks and  everyone who uses it has been more than
impressed by its simplicity and yet its full capabilities.

     There is also support for on-the-fly data archiving and
de-archiving using the popular zip  or tar.gz formats.

     How much the underlying system is hidden to the end-user?

     Most of our users have not used Linux before so that tells you how
much hidden it is.

     How do users that switch from Microsoft Windows to Xandros perceive
that switch?

     Ming Poon: Based on all the feedback we have had, every one of them
is more than happy. They have a more stable  OS, free of all the Windows
viruses out there, and can continue to use their favorite Windows
application on Xandros  Desktop OS if they choose to. Some users' family
members have not even noticed that it is not Windows until they are 
told. It is quite a phenomenon..

     Rick Berenstein: In one corporate roll-out (150 desktops) at the
end of the first shift, two operators asked what had happened to  their
Windows wallpaper (we did not migrate it over). Other than that, none of
the 150 operators ever knew that they no  longer had Windows on their
machines. That for me is the proof of the pudding, former Windows users
can just sit down and  go back to work.

     On the Xandros website
[http://www.xandros.com/products/business/products_business.html] it
mentions "Xandros Business Desktop" a premier alternative to Windows
desktops for small and large organizations. Can you tell us some more
about this product?

     Rick Berenstein: Well, the Xandros Business Desktop is the first in
that line of solutions.  It offers enterprises all the features  of
Xandros Deluxe and also adds automatic Windows domain authentication and
total support for Active Directory servers.  This way it can just be
added in to a heterogeneous network environment and start working right
away out of the box.

     Do you see a market for commercial closed-source desktop
applications on Linux? Do you think the KDE API provides a viable
application framework for such software?

     Rick Berenstein: I see the potential for both in the future.  The
KDE API certainly provides a framework for such software. I think  that
over the next few years this will become a major market in the Linux
world.

     What are the critical applications that enterprises need and does
Xandros provide these applications?

     Rick Berenstein: I think the Xandros Desktop (in all of it's
versions)  provides the basic applications that people need on a 
day-today basis. There is a full office suite (and several other good
ones available for free download), a web browser,  and a variety of
best-of-breed applets that make working easier. So yes, I believe we
provide the critical applications  with out of the box.

     What are the typical cost savings when using Xandros in an
enterprise environment?

     Rick Berenstein: In an enterprise environment the cost savings go
from huge to astronomical because many enterprises  who are thinking of
upgrading to XP also have to count in the cost of hardware upgrades, the
XP license,  the Palladium licensing scheme and so on. And Xandros not
only provides a great OS but also the critical  applications so there is
no need to add third-party application costs either.

     What would motivate enterprises to move to Linux on the desktop?

     Rick Berenstein: Many things. Cost of course, but also knowing that
they have their vital information on a more  stable and more secure
operating system. And a licensing system that does not bind them to
forced  future software and hardware upgrades. There are many reasons
for enterprises to move to Linux and  as each day passes more and more
enterprises are discovering this. At last November's Desktop  Linux
Consortium gathering, IBM gave a speech titled "Now Is The Time For
Linux On The Desktop"  and they talked about how many pilots are going
on and how, after the first Fortune 500 company  announces it is
switching to Linux the rest of the enterprise community will follow in a
deluge  of conversions.

     What do you consider the biggest barrier when a company decides to
use Linux on their desktop?

     Rick Berenstein: In the past it might have been concerns about
whether they would be able to run the applications they  were accustomed
to or whether they would have access to all of their data (Word
documents and Excel spreadsheets, but  that is no longer really an
issue. Today it is mostly getting over the FUD coming out of Redmond and
just giving Linux a whirl.

     Some IT managers claim that an enterprise desktop migration from
Windows to Linux would be very difficult. What do you think on that
matter?

     Rick Berenstein: As I mentioned above, I don't think that this
would be the case today. Two years ago,  yes, but not today. And with
the Xandros Business Desktop and the Xandros Desktop Management Server
for  wide area deployment and remote management, working in an
enterprise environment will be easier with  Xandros than it is today
with Windows.

     Reality today is that more and more mixed computing environments
are found in organizations. How will these organizations benefit from
using Xandros in these mixed computing environments?

     Rick Berenstein: In a mixed environment, Xandros will provide a
level of administrative control and firewall protection  which is not
only powerful but a model of simplicity as well. Again, enterprises will
save money and time  (which also equals money). At the DLC gathering Nat
Friedman said that the cost of viruses in the Windows world  from
January 2003, until November 2003 was on the order of 130 billion
dollars in terms of lost time and data.  They would have saved a bundle
with Xandros on the desktop.

     What is your take on the desktop computing market for 2004 and
where do you see Xandros going?

     Rick Berenstein: 2004 will definitely be the year of the Linux
desktop - at least in terms of its real acceptance and  growth in the
mainstream. The CAGR (Compound Annual Growth Rate
[http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/cagr.asp])  for Linux on the
desktop is 44%, higher than  on the server side (33%) so all the figures
suggest that by the end of 2007, on a global basis, Linux will be  on
about 45% of the desktops, which, if you think about it, is really
amazing. Between now and 2008 more than  600 million computer will be
built and the number running Linux will almost equal all the PCs
currently in operation.

     We believe that Xandros, by offering a complete end-to-end solution
for home users, enterprises, and government  and education as well as by
innovation products which we will introduce in the future, will remain a
major and favored  company in the Linux world.

     Where would you like to see the future of KDE go, and what new
features would you like to see in future releases?

     Ming Poon: An all-in-one media player will be on the top of our
list so that the end users won't be  stumbling upon different media
players that have very different looks and feel and may even have
overlapping.  I think KDE needs to focus on finishing off some of these
apps in a more polished manner and making things more  consistent across
all the apps as opposed to inventing more new features (at least for the
next release). Having  a consistent way or policy on how each app
handles File Open dialog errors would be a very good starting point.

     Rick Berenstein: I personally see a very bright future for KDE and
the KDE desktop. Of course polishing always needs to be done,  but I
believe that the underlying structure as well as the Qt widget set and
programming environment allow KDE to  flexibility to add any new
features that the future will demand.