How to handle KDE not respecting YOUR distros requirements?

[Martin Graesslin]

On Thursday, March 31, 2016 5:59:37 AM CEST Eric Hameleers wrote:

> Put the quoted text into Google as everyone will have done after reading 
your email, and it is pretty obvious what the source of your complaint was.

yes of course. But I still believe in the good in people. My intention was to 
really leave the distro out of it and I tried to make it clear by the way I 
phrased it and shortening the quote that I don't want people to do that. I 
assumed that the readers of my mail get that and will respect that request to 
not put into a search engine.

> Yes and I was, and am, glad about that. Without the collaboration with
> the CK2 team, Slackware would never be able to migrate to Plasma 5.

Wait what? We don't require that anywhere. I think you have wrong assumptions. 
We integrate with logind, yes. But that doesn't mean we require it on X11 
(Wayland is different).

Might it be that you have problems with lower parts of the stack requiring 
logind and by that breaking things in Plasma (that's a case I know from 
devuan)? Which would hardly be our fault and would have broken Plasma 4 as 
well.

> Would you cheer when a distro drops your work because you did not care
> enough about your downstream users? I guess not!
 
if it's because they are misinformed that would be bad, yes.

> KDE  Plasma 5 is a
> grand piece of software

thanks
> which I use every day and do not want to
> lose because for obvious reasons I am sticking with Slackware. I am
> also using Gnome 3 on a daily basis on another OS and I have no love
> for that DE.
> 
> > So I kindly ask you as well to please stop assuming we want to force
> > anybody to use systemd. The only thing we ask you is to raise such issues
> > on our mailing list - either this one or more developer specific. If you
> > don't tell us, we don't notice it's a problem.
> > 
> > And here it's absolutely important to get your work. We don't have a
> > system
> > without logind. We won't be able to test a patch. I don't even know
> > whether
> > the respective feature can work at all without consolekit2 or logind. So
> > please come to us and give us the input. But don't rant, not even on your
> > distro blog post which we are not supposed to ever see.
> 
> I rant whenever I think it is necessary. In this case, it was
> necessary.

If you want to be taken serious by us, I suggest to no longer rant. You rant 
and assume the worst. On that level we cannot work together. Why should we 
want to do work for Slackware's need if you call us crazy in public?

In Plasma we always have the saying we should assume "good intentions". It 
should be obvious that we don't want to force anyone on systemd. Thus your 
assumption must be wrong. If you assume good intentions you realize that we 
must have either done an oversight or a bug.

> Do not make assumptions about your downstream please. It is
> percieved as condescending, even if that was not your intention.

We didn't make any assumption. It was an oversight, which btw. I'm starting to 
address as far as I can on my system: https://phabricator.kde.org/D1260

I still don't know what would be the replacement command on a consolekit2 
powered system or whether loginctl is provided by consolekit2. My assumption 
is that consolekit2 provides loginctl for compatibility. Which would be 
awesome as then as upstream we have one interface we can use.

> 
> I am making Live ISOs available of our development release, with
> Plasma 5 stuck on top instead of Slackware's own KDE 4:
> https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Live_Images#Slackware . This allows
> people to test without having to install. I build a collection of
> Frameworks, Plasma and Applications once a month and refresh the Live
> ISO with them. Feel free to give it a spin.

sorry, but I just don't have the time to run any distro ISOs. I'm really busy 
with this Wayland stuff ;-)

> 
> >> I do not see how this is an insult, sorry Martin.
> > 
> > I wrote the patch in question, of course I read that as a personal insult
> > calling me crazy. I hope you can imagine how it must feel to me reading
> > your blog post, seeing my (useful) feature described like that, me as the
> > developer attacked. If you don't want to insult devs, don't write like
> > that.
> I think you are as vocal about your beliefs as I am about mine, so
> shall we leave it at that?

calling me crazy is not being vocal. It's an insult and I don't like being 
insulted - especially not in public. I am sure you wouldn't like that either.

> You are hereby invited to drinking a beer with me whenever you visit the 
Netherlands.

thanks :-)

Martin
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