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This is an automatically generated e-mail. To reply, visit:
<a href="https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/">https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/</a>
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<p style="margin-top: 0;">On Oktober 24th, 2016, 11 vorm. UTC, <b>Albert Astals Cid</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">-1 it's an established shortcut for cut too. even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_keyboard_shortcuts lists it in "Cut the selection and store it in the clipboard"</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 11:05 vorm. UTC, <b>Elvis Angelaccio</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Ah, sorry I didn't know that. Still, the conflict is caused by kconfig itself and it's being worked around by applications. What should we do then?</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 11:24 vorm. UTC, <b>Heiko Tietze</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">This question was asked last year on the mailing list https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2015-June/thread.html#877. Shift+Del dates back to the medieval ages but was never reverted and is still in our HIG. The discussion didn't end with a solution. And I strongly suggest to have a generic solution that works in all programs. Btw, Krusader uses Shift+Del for permanently delete files.</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 12:10 nachm. UTC, <b>Elvis Angelaccio</b> wrote:</p>
<blockquote style="margin-left: 1em; border-left: 2px solid #d0d0d0; padding-left: 10px;">
<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Thanks for the link. So if I understand the issue correctly, we should first agree upon another primary shortcut for "Force Delete" and replace Shift+Del with that, at least in KConfig. What about Meta+Del like Thomas suggested?</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 12:22 nachm. UTC, <b>Heiko Tietze</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><ol style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0 0 0 2em;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Do we want to retain IBM shortcuts used for decades? Yes, keep shift+del as alternative to ctrl+X; No, drop the unknown shortcut.
2a. If 1)=Yes, do we want to have a similar shortcut for permanently delete? Yes, meta+del/alt+del... No, use something completely different and app specific
2b. If 1)=No, do we want to have an easy shortcut for destructive functions? Yes, use ctrl+del for convenience. No, make it hard to unintentionally run destructive functions; rather use shift+alt+del/ctrl+alt+del or the like.</li>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">(My take is 2b and No; but it has to work in <em style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">every</em> KDE app unless the app defines its own behavior)</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 9:41 nachm. UTC, <b>Albert Astals Cid</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">My suggestion is:</p>
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<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Cut is Ctrl+X and Shift+Delete by default</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default</li>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;"><strong style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">if</strong> both Cut and DeleteFile are used in the same action collection we disable Shift+Delete from Cut (only if it's there by default and it was not the user that set it on purpose)</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">That should be <em style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">doable</em> hopefully.</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 1:43 nachm. UTC, <b>Mark Gaiser</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted.
Regardless of the shortcut, every other modern OS (win and mac) uses the delete key to "move to trash" and a <special>+delete key to permanantly remove the file.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent delete, not cut text. Other apps should <em style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">not</em> use that key combination for a task that isn't permanently deleting something.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Just my 2ct.</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 1:51 nachm. UTC, <b>Heiko Tietze</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Let's do a quick poll: https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/QJzpApTeSFg</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 1:55 nachm. UTC, <b>Albert Astals Cid</b> wrote:</p>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">I would not do that. It would be unexpected behavior when the user deletes a file (in for instance dolphin) and expects it to end up in the trash. With your suggestion it would be permanantly deleted.</p>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Why would with my suggestion end up permanently deleted instead of trash?</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 1:56 nachm. UTC, <b>Albert Astals Cid</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><blockquote style="text-rendering: inherit;padding: 0 0 0 1em;border-left: 1px solid #bbb;white-space: normal;margin: 0 0 0 0.5em;line-height: inherit;">
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Lets stick to the established commands over time where Shift+del is permanent delete</p>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">I don't know man, i already cited wikipedia proving you wrong, what more do you want?</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 2:08 nachm. UTC, <b>Luigi Toscano</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org, or woth some tool that does not require a google account.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">That said, even if different, we should have a global shortcut for permanent deletion as now, or we will end up with bugs to have all apps provide the same shortcut anyway.</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 2:22 nachm. UTC, <b>Heiko Tietze</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><blockquote style="text-rendering: inherit;padding: 0 0 0 1em;border-left: 1px solid #bbb;white-space: normal;margin: 0 0 0 0.5em;line-height: inherit;">
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">IMHO the poll should be better placed for example on forums.kde.org</p>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Don't understand a quick poll like this as a final and definite survey. It's quickly done, addresses a lot of average users (guess more than on the forums or via blog->planet), and adds one more insight.</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 6:43 nachm. UTC, <b>Mark Gaiser</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Hi Albert,</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">You said "DeleteFile is Shift+Delete by default" which lead me to think that pressing "delete" was going to do that action. Sorry my bad.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut shortcut. That is not right!</p></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 25th, 2016, 8:32 nachm. UTC, <b>Albert Astals Cid</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><blockquote style="text-rendering: inherit;padding: 0 0 0 1em;border-left: 1px solid #bbb;white-space: normal;margin: 0 0 0 0.5em;line-height: inherit;">
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Regarding the shift+delete and wikipedia. I highly doubt what wikipedia says is true. I know with 100% certainty that shift+delete is permanently delete on windows, yet on that wikipedia page shift+delete is described as cut shortcut. That is not right!</p>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">You just made me reboot into windows 10</p>
<ul style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0 0 0 1em;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Open Microsoft Edge</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Type "hola" in the url bar</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Select it</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Press Shift+Delete</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Close Microsoft Edge</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Open Firefox</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Press Ctrl+V</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">Voilà, "hola" appeared on the url bar of firefox</li>
</ul></pre>
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<p>On Oktober 26th, 2016, 5:01 vorm. UTC, <b>Matthew Dawson</b> wrote:</p>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">So I think the best solution going forward is to give primary shortcuts precedence over alternate shortcuts. Then Shift+Delete can be an alternate shortcut for Cut and a primary for ForceDelete, which will behave as expected in just about every application. Thoughts?</p></pre>
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<pre style="white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">The majority expects to purge with shift+del (~75%). You may read this result as approval to remove this shortcut.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">I would interpret this quick poll as only a few knows the standard and expect a rather destructive function. While it's not harmful to cut an object instead of purge, the intention might be safety. But vice versa, if the user expects to cut and get purge, she might end in a quite uncomfortable situation. So I still vote for less a comfortable shortcut for permanently delete, which in turn would allow to keep the standard.</p></pre>
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<p>- Heiko</p>
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<p>On Oktober 24th, 2016, 10:47 vorm. UTC, Elvis Angelaccio wrote:</p>
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<div>Review request for KDE Frameworks, KDE Usability and Matthew Dawson.</div>
<div>By Elvis Angelaccio.</div>
<p style="color: grey;"><i>Updated Okt. 24, 2016, 10:47 vorm.</i></p>
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<b style="color: #575012; font-size: 10pt; margin-top: 1.5em;">Bugs: </b>
<a href="https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=357747">357747</a>
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<b style="color: #575012; font-size: 10pt;">Repository: </b>
kconfig
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<h1 style="color: #575012; font-size: 10pt; margin-top: 1.5em;">Description </h1>
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<pre style="margin: 0; padding: 0; white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">This patch removes Shift+Del as secondary shortcut for the Cut action. This shortcut was set back in 2001.</p>
<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Reasons for removing it:</p>
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<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">The expected standard behavior for this shortcut is "Permanently delete"</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">For the reason above, it is also set as primary shortcut for the <code style="text-rendering: inherit;color: #4444cc;padding: 0;white-space: normal;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;">DeleteFile</code> action. This causes conflicts in applications.</li>
<li style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: normal;">For the reason above, many applications (e.g. Dolphin or Digikam) already resolve this conflict on their own.</li>
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<p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Credits to Jan for the investigation: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=347373#c2</p></pre>
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<h1 style="color: #575012; font-size: 10pt; margin-top: 1.5em;">Testing </h1>
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<pre style="margin: 0; padding: 0; white-space: pre-wrap; white-space: -moz-pre-wrap; white-space: -pre-wrap; white-space: -o-pre-wrap; word-wrap: break-word;"><p style="padding: 0;text-rendering: inherit;margin: 0;line-height: inherit;white-space: inherit;">Using Shift+Del in Gwenview now works as expected.</p></pre>
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<h1 style="color: #575012; font-size: 10pt; margin-top: 1.5em;">Diffs</b> </h1>
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<li>src/gui/kstandardshortcut.cpp <span style="color: grey">(92eb091382c7ab2110240cef21f29268be787250)</span></li>
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<p><a href="https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/129251/diff/" style="margin-left: 3em;">View Diff</a></p>
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